Kristen Carder 0:05
Kristin, welcome to the I have ADHD podcast, where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults. With ADHD, I’m your host, Kristin Carter and I have ADHD. Let’s chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting, relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Kristin Carter, and you’ve tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. I’m so glad that you’re here with me, and today I have a really special guest, third time appearance on the podcast, Dr Ari Tuchman, so excited to have him here. He’s been with me twice before, and today he is in studio for our first in person recording. Really excited to chat with him today, because what we’re going to be talking about is productivity. Why ADHD or struggles so much with productivity, and how in the heck we can make it better? How can we get ourselves to do the things that we want to do, and get ourselves to, like, check off the boxes and get the things done. So we are going to be talking all about that today. But first, YouTube, Hi, I am the new kid on the block, and I am asking you if you like this content. Press the like button. If you have questions, leave a comment. Tell me what you think about this content, and if you think that this is like legit and other ADHD ers should hear it, share it, I would absolutely love for you to interact with this video, because what that’s gonna do, it’s gonna tell the neighborhood, the YouTube neighborhood, that this is worth watching. It’s worth tuning into. And other people with ADHD are gonna be able to find this content. So do me a favor. Press like leave a comment. I will personally respond to you and then share it with a friend. I would so appreciate it. So Dr, Ari Tuckman, Ari, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

Ari Tuckman 2:16
I am super psyched to be here to talk about this topic. But more importantly, I’m just glad that we could hang out in person and do it same. It’s

Kristen Carder 2:23
so fun. Twice we’ve met over zoom, and there’s just something so different about being in person. So I’m really, really glad that you’re here.

Ari Tuckman 2:31
I’m always a fan of good, solid information about ADHD. So pleasure to be here. Cool.

Kristen Carder 2:36
So I want to start off by letting people know why they should bother to listen to you, sure, because there’s a lot of people out there talking about ADHD, making claims about ADHD, but you are someone who has been in the ADHD world for a long time. You’ve learned from some of the best. You’ve written some excellent books, one of which is on the shelf here behind me, I think so. Tell me about your work with ADHD ers.

Ari Tuckman 3:02
So I’m a psychologist. I’m in private practice. Really, what I do my actual day job is I sit in my office and I talk to people all day, most of whom I have ADHD. Also what I do, though, is, and you know, I’ve been doing this for about 25 years, and ADHD has very much been my focus. But also what I do is I do a lot of presenting, yeah, to clinicians on how to work with folks with ADHD presenting. You know, for folks who themselves have ADHD or their parent or their spouse or whatever, so very much about like, Pres, like, kind of packaging, good information. I’ve also written four books. Four books, my fifth one, as soon as I hear back from that agent, and can actually it’s written, that’s cool, but my fifth one’s going to be on productivity and ADHD, so awesome. I spent a lot of time really kind of thinking about this, because, as we know, it’s not as quick and easy as, like, the top three hacks that will, like, reinvent your life or something, like, If only it was that easy. Yeah, so I am really excited to have a good in depth, hour long conversation about

Kristen Carder 4:13
that. That’s so good. Okay, well, you said something that piqued my interest. So if you don’t mind, I’d like to take just a little bit of a left turn rabbit trail, because you said that you talked to clinicians about working with people with ADHD, and I feel like, as someone with ADHD who supports a lot of people with ADHD, that is one of the primary frustrations that we have, yeah, is like the disconnect between clinician and patient. You know, ADHD, patient. So would you mind just giving me, like, a brief synopsis on like, what do you tell clinicians? Like, what do you say? Like, hey, here’s how to work with people with ADHD. Because I think it would be actually really encouraging and give a lot of hope to people who are on the other side of. That clinician relationship. So what do you think is like the number one thing that clinicians can do, or it doesn’t have to be the number one that’s kind of like, clickbaity. You’re like, Don’t bait me into that. So

Ari Tuckman 5:10
many more than Yeah, but

Kristen Carder 5:12
what do you what do you feel like are like the main points there?

Ari Tuckman 5:16
I mean, honestly the biggest point is, ADHD is out there, please look for it, right? Especially if we’re talking about adults. I think, honestly, the clinicians who see kids, I think it’s hard to be a child therapist or a child psychiatrist or a pediatrician and not have ADHD on your radar somehow, though, if you’re a clinician who sees adults, seemingly it’s very easy to not have ADHD on your radar, and yet it is there, right? And that adults with ADHD are overrepresented in therapists and psychiatrists offices, right? Meaning that they may not be showing up for well, they may not say that they’re showing up for ADHD, but you know, they’re showing up for anxiety and depression and substance abuse problems and marital problems and all the other stuff that ADHD impacts. And you know, as a clinician, or any of us, I mean, you can’t find what you don’t look for. So if you don’t have ADHD on your radar, you’re going to say, Oh, this must be this other thing. This is especially true, I think, for women where it’s like, oh, she’s anxious and depressed. Let’s treat that without asking the first question of like, Why is she so anxious and depressed? Maybe, is she not getting stuff done because she’s anxious and depressed? Or is she anxious and depressed because she’s not getting stuff done, which is a pretty damn good reason to be anxious and depressed, frankly. So I kind of use the analogy. It’s like painting the water stains on the ceiling, but not fixing the roof. So a big part of what I do when I talk to clinicians is putting it up on their radar screen. This is their you have clients right now who have ADHD. They don’t know it, and you don’t know it, but let’s look for it and really get to the heart of what’s going on here, so the rest of your treatment can be that much more effective. So that’s really the main thing, kind of related to it, is also that ADH is actually a big deal, right? Don’t just sort of skip over it. Of, like, well, you’re not taking classes, so whatever, right, like it. Sadly, it doesn’t go away when you graduate, right? Keep showing up. So, so that’s a lot of it. And as much as I love doing stuff for the public, I feel like if I can train one clinician to look for it, they can impact 100 people on

Kristen Carder 7:38
behalf of, you know the person on the user end of that experience. Thank you. I appreciate that so much. We as a community appreciate that so much. Because what you said just there you can’t find what you don’t look for. I think that that sums it up so perfectly. And there are so many people that I support who’ve had later in life diagnoses after being first diagnosed with exactly what you said, anxiety, depression or other things as well. And finally, someone understood. ADHD could see the root cause of what you know all of these other diagnoses were, and, yeah, so I think that education is everything. I’m so glad you’re doing it so good. Okay, let’s get to the point of this conversation, which is, let’s talk about productivity and people with ADHD, yeah. And gosh, it this is the number one thing that people come to me wanting to solve, just help me be more productive. And if it were easy, I would be so much happier because and everybody else would be too, because it would be so great if it was just, like, just download this five step, you know, PDF, and like, I’ve got these easy steps for you to follow, but it is actually so complicated, and there are so many layers that need to be pulled back as to like, why is this so hard, and what can we do? So let’s start with, why is it so hard? Why? Why is it so hard for people with ADHD to just set a goal, follow the steps, do the thing.

Ari Tuckman 9:23
Let’s actually pull out the camera a little. Let’s sort of pull back so people are complicated, right? Like, let’s just start there. If people were 100% rational, you would have a podcast about gardening, and I’d be working as a carpenter, right? Because, like you and I would have nothing. Nobody would come to us. We’d have nothing to talk about all day, right? So in general, people are complicated, and what we say we want and what we do don’t always line up right. Now, if you have ADHD even more, so they don’t line up right? But it’s kind of like I’ve got this line 80. Doesn’t invent new problems, it just exacerbates the universal ones, right? Everybody procrastinates. Sometimes everybody forgets to do things. Doesn’t put stuff away, you know, messes up their time management, right? We’re all fallible, and we all have our moments. ADHD just means you have those moments more often, probably at a greater cost and probably, sadly, also more visible to others, right? So that’s the difference. ADHD is not about a difference in kind. It’s a difference in degree, right? So, but productivity and just generally, like getting things done, staying on top of demands is, it’s the number one complaint from people with ADHD, right? It’s the reason they come to you and me. It’s also the number one complaint about people with ADHD, right, so their spouses and their parents also come to us. So, um, so there’s and it makes sense why they would, right? Because, like, let’s face it, you got to get stuff done in life. You know, you don’t have to, like, take over the world, but like, You got to get the basics of stuff done so that hopefully there’s enough time and space and energy to actually pursue the things that are meaningful and interesting, that you actually want to live, to do, right? And that, I think that’s really the sort of ultimate impact of living with ADHD that’s not being well managed. It’s not about the fact that you’re showing up to work late. It’s not about the fact that you, I don’t know, forgot to order a birthday present on time. It’s about that impact on your ability to live the kind of life that you want to live, right? It’s about adding in the positives, the things that are important and interesting and meaningful, that feels like you make a difference in the world. Right? That is the ultimate cost of not managing your ADHD well. So it’s not just about avoiding the negatives. It’s about being able to add in enough of the positives. So that’s why we’re talking about it in terms of, why is it hard? It’s because productivity is not one thing or top seven bullet lists, you know, like there are so many things that go into productivity. And you know, when I started, I was sort of putting together this video series on productivity, and I’ve sort of converted that into this book that will hopefully one day get published. If I hear back from this agent, what are they waiting for? I don’t know, because they’re busy, right? Because,

Kristen Carder 12:34
I mean, cut it out. Give them a call today.

Ari Tuckman 12:39
Like, I just kept adding stuff, right? Like, I just kept generating content and new ideas and new new sort of areas that you need to address. And this is why it’s hard, right? If you’re listening to this, because you’re not as productive as you want to be, it’s because it’s not easy, right? So, like, cut yourself a bit of slack on the fact that it’s not like an overnight solution. And it’s also, by the way, even if somehow it was an overnight solution, you don’t have to be productive for one day and then you’re like, well, sweet, I’m done with that, right? You know, it’s like a day after day after day for all the days for all the

Kristen Carder 13:19
I’m tired, yeah, thinking about that, it’s like I could solve it for today, but then I’m gonna have to solve it for tomorrow, and then the next day and the next day. And as someone with ADHD, and speaking on behalf of people with ADHD, it is exhausting, like, mentally, emotionally, spiritually exhausting, to every day just feel the weight of like I have to get this done, and there’s no clear pathway. Is what it feels like, and my brain is like resisting at every turn. And every time I ask myself to do something, I’m like, oppositionally defiant to myself, you know? I’m like, No, I’m not doing that. And it’s like, and it’s just exhausting. It’s exhausting. And

Ari Tuckman 14:12
I think that that’s actually a really important point, because it’s not just exhausting in the doing, it’s also exhausting in the thinking about the doing, yes, you know, and the dreading the doing, and the worrying about the doing, and the worrying about the what you haven’t done, yeah, some of which you know, and some of which you’re worried. Like, what’s that ticking time bomb? Like, who’s sending me an ask the email tomorrow of what I didn’t remember to do? Right? So, like,

Kristen Carder 14:41
yeah, it’s exhausting. Another part that feels exhausting, and maybe you can speak to this a little bit, is that there are so many things that I feel like I should and I’m using air quotes that I should be productive on. And one of the things that I uncover with my clients after. Were working with people for five years, I realized that a lot of the things that we tell ourselves we should do and we put on our list actually don’t belong on our list, and we don’t really even care about it, but we do beat ourselves up about not getting it done. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah.

Ari Tuckman 15:17
I mean, the awesome part about that is you’ll never get it done, so you will always be able to beat yourself up about it, right? It’s just the gift that keeps on giving, right? So, so this is part of what I talk about with productivity. It’s not just about getting things done. I mean, that’s the obvious part, sure, but it’s also what, what are you even getting done, right? Let’s actually kind of take a step back and decide within the 24 hours of a day, what is going to make the cut and what doesn’t. And, you know, I mean, obviously there are things we would rather not do, but really we should do, because ultimately they’re good for us somehow or other to do. But, like, there is all that stuff where it’s, like, I don’t know if I want to do this right. Like, given finite time and resources, where do I divide that all up, you know? And I think that so, like, that’s a challenge for all of us. Everybody has more ideas than time, and more things sort of pressing upon them than time. But especially if you have ADHD, especially if you feel like you’ve lived your entire life somehow falling short or being kind of, you know, I don’t know what a day $1 day late and $1 short on things, you know, it can feel even more like you have to do the things that people tell you, right? There’s a thing of owing it to people, of like they asked me to bake cupcakes for the bake sale. And, you know, nobody else in the district owns an oven. So clearly I can be the only person to be the one, right? It has to be me. I showed up late that one time at the PTA meeting. So now I’m obligated, Forever After, to do everything they ask me. So, like, there’s that part too. And the problem is, the setup is, if you agree to something you kind of can’t do, or you just really don’t want to do, you’re not going to do it, you know, right? Like, all you’re going to do is torture yourself over it. So, you know, when I talk about productivity, one of the things I talk about is, what are you even taking on in the first place? And then, of course, there’s a whole issue of some things that might have been a good idea one time, right? Time has moved on and they’ve ceased to still be a good idea. You know that is like, well, that might have been reasonable, but no longer right. So, like, you know, to do lists, whether they’re actually written down or just the clutter in your head, are kind of leaving documents right. At some point you got to go through and say, sorry, nope, yep, not getting to that either delete, delete, delete. Why don’t people with

Kristen Carder 18:03
ADHD feel empowered and like, have the authority in their own lives to do that? Like, why do we have to sit with you and learn it? Why can’t they just, why can’t we just feel that authority and feel that like, inner Yeah, power of like, I get to decide what I do, yeah, what? Why?

Ari Tuckman 18:23
I think there’s a bunch of, as with every question you’re gonna ask me, there’s a bunch of layers to this, right? So the one is, what we’re just talking about, that kind of social capital thing. Do I have the social capital to be able to say, Sorry, man, I’m not getting into

Kristen Carder 18:35
this always feeling like you’re working from a deficit and having to make up for something, right?

Ari Tuckman 18:39
Exactly. So there’s that level. I think some of it is, it’s, there’s a cognitive effort required. If I look at a to do list that has a bunch of stuff on it, right? Got it, but that, but there’s also this, but that relates to this other thing, and this would be good to get it done, because then we can do that, except, you know, but there’s this, right? So there’s the cognitive effort of sorting everything through, but there’s also an emotional, oh, and actually, on the cognitive effort, by the way, do you even know everything you need to do is your schedule up to date? Have you? You know, I find

Kristen Carder 19:17
my passwords and my logins and the apps, all the different apps for the kids, exactly

Ari Tuckman 19:23
right? And do you have you looked at your email to see what right? So it’s sort of to decide this thing on my to do list you got to know everything else, because it’s, of course, within the context of every other competing, you know, task or goal or priority. So cognitively, there’s a lot there, but I think emotionally, it can also be difficult to sort of look at it and really make some hard choices and accept the fact that any decision you make, at some level, you won’t feel good about right if you’re like, I just need to find. Someone to clean the gutters, right, which is the most boring thing you could ever do, right? And yet they’re leaking, and then it’s going to above it, right? So you’re like, Fine, I’ll do that, right? And you hate the idea of doing it, but also, if you decide not to do it, you sort of hate that idea too, right? Or you hate the idea of a green or the bake sale, but then you feel bad if you don’t right. So, like, emotional lose, right? And that, I mean, when you got an 8020 on something, you can feel pretty good about it. There’s a lot of things in life that are kind of 4951 you know, where it’s like, okay, well, I guess barely This makes the cut, or they feel kind of 5050, and then you’re like, I guess I’m flipping a coin. I guess that’s as good as it’s gonna get. Okay, you know? So there’s kind of that part too, of kind of accepting that emotional work, yeah, of not loving whatever decision you make, yeah,

Kristen Carder 20:52
I think that you hit the nail on the head. Because when you feel like you’re choosing between terrible and terrible. A lot of times I just want to say, like, I just won’t decide. I’m just going to put it off and and avoid it. And then a decision is made by default, yeah? And then usually it’s like, the social capital goes down, yeah? And like, my whole the deficit feels even bigger, and then I’m feeling more obligated to people. And so I think that you’re absolutely right, that that feeling of like, there’s no good answer here, accepting that could really help, yeah, just make logical decisions, yeah?

Ari Tuckman 21:40
And it is, I mean, it’s, it’s accepting it, and there’s kind of a distress tolerance or discomfort tolerance of it, but, you know, so that avoiding is a decision like that is, yes, an active decision that gets made. Now maybe it gets made very quickly and we don’t notice it, but like that is a choice that was made. But, you know this also kind of circling back to where we began about kind of diagnosing. ADHD, let’s say you do that where you’re like, I’m not going to deal with any of this, right? And then 11 o’clock at night, you’re like, jammed up against it, and you’re like, Oh, fine, right? And then you stay up till three in the morning doing whatever it is. Um, and then, of course, the next day is not a good day. You’re not bringing your A game after that point. But you know, like you look pretty, like you look okay, right? You’re getting it done. So if someone’s like, tell me about how you’re managing your life. You’re like, I don’t know. I mean, I’m getting decent grades. Or, like, you know, my spouse hasn’t left me, and I haven’t been indicted by the FBI, so I guess I’m fine, right? Like, it hides the impact of ADHD, but there’s the suffering behind it, of what it took to make it happen. So, you know, like, that’s one of those kind of costs of ADHD that you need to know, to look for. But also, like, I don’t want you to have, like, whether it’s public or private, I don’t want you to pay the price

Kristen Carder 23:04
totally. Yeah, the price tag is high. And I think that, as someone with ADHD who hears from a lot of ADHD ers, we think that we don’t deserve any better. It’s like, we can’t even really articulate how high that price is for someone who asks us for maybe a clinician, because we just feel like, and again, like I’m painting with a broad brush, and if this isn’t everyone’s story, great, but in general, I feel like we just feel like we’re working from such A deficit we have so much to make up for, and the price is just the price. We don’t see the cost as being as high as it is. We just feel like, well, I just deserve it. Like this is just what I deserve, because I suck at life, I suck at relationships, I suck at productivity. So of course, I don’t deserve to sleep at night. I don’t deserve to rest. I don’t deserve to have peace and just get things done little by little. Yeah, right, yeah.

Ari Tuckman 24:06
I mean, it’s just, or even more simply, it’s just like, Yeah, I don’t know. It’s kind of what I’ve always done, yeah,

Kristen Carder 24:13
and I’ve watched my parents do it, yeah, exactly. That’s a really interesting component. Like this is just kind of always how our family has functioned. So it’s just normal, yeah, yeah. It’s

Ari Tuckman 24:26
like, any sort of family, sort of culture thing, right? It’s like, I don’t know, this is what we Oh, you guys do. Oh, yeah. Now, like at my house, this is what we do, right? It’s just kind of part of the air. So,

Kristen Carder 24:36
yes, yeah. I mean, for me, like, growing up in a family that was always time, blind, running late, very chaotic, that was just normal. I didn’t know any different. So if somebody were to ask me about that, I wouldn’t have been able to articulate like, yeah, it feels really rushed, and it feels like a lot of pressure, and there feels like, like we’re always late, and I’m not sure why. It just would have been. Like, I wouldn’t have had anything to say about it, yeah,

Ari Tuckman 25:02
and I mean, but there’s also a cultural component to that, right? There are certain cultures that just run later. And even, like, I did a presentation a morning and then an afternoon presentation for the this association of Orthodox Jewish therapists, and I got there at the start time for my lunch presentation. Literally, there was not one other person in the room at the designated start time, right? And I don’t think every attending therapist had ADHD, but sort of culturally, I think because they have a lot of kids, like, I think we can often blame children for people being late, right? Like that was just culturally, they never told me this. That would have been helpful. I would have done my slides differently. But like, you know, so there’s that it’s kind of like, however we grow up is normal in our family, and hopefully, in many ways, that serves as well, but also sometimes it doesn’t. And of course, anytime you move in with someone else, you realize all the ways that things are different. Um, but you know, it’s definitely a thing of like not having to accept that this is the way either life is, or at least this is the way I am in life, right? And that there is this better way, which personally is part of what is actually so fulfilling about working with ADHD is like, what a big difference it can make in people’s lives, and not just that like their productivity gets better, but also that they feel better about themselves by seeing it through this new lens.

Kristen Carder 26:36
I heard Russell Barkley say once that ADHD is the most treatable mental health condition. Do you think that that is still the case? I

Ari Tuckman 26:48
do. I mean, I do. I think that, you know, medication tends to do a pretty good job for many people. Doesn’t solve all of life’s problems, but, you know, it sets a pretty good foundation. And I think that there’s so many good resources out there at this time, including the work that you’re doing, and you know, all our friends on the bookshelf here, right? Like there’s really good work being done, so that you don’t have to figure it out the hard way.

Kristen Carder 27:16
Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time and you wake up early. Make a list, cross the things off the list in order manage your time. Well, yeah, we know what to do, but ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That’s why ADHD is so frustrating. We’re smart and we want to succeed, but we can’t get ourselves to do the things that we know we should do in order to make improvements. That’s why I created focused I’m a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019 I’ve spent 1000s of hours coaching adults with ADHD. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from Hot Mess express to grounded and thriving focused. Is my monthly coaching membership where we go deep and we get to the root cause of what holds us back with ADHD, I will teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and accept yourself flaws and all with this foundation, we build the skills to improve life with ADHD. And not only do you get skills and tools in focus, but you’re surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr Ned Hallowell says healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. As a matter of fact, listen to what actual focus members have to say about being in this program.

Focused Member 28:54
What can I say about focused,

Focused Member 28:55
full community of people who have issues similar to you and judge you focus just really

Focused Member 29:01
supported me with my difficulties in asking for help. I’ve been encouraged and cheered on by the community. I really like that you

Focused Member 29:06
can do as much for as little as you want. It’s it’s not just about the volume of the content. It’s about the quality. Focus has helped me understand ADHD better. I would recommend this to anyone. I would thoroughly recommend focus. I can confidently say that this is one of the best decisions that I have made for myself. So if

Kristen Carder 29:24
you’re an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused go to I have adhd.com/focus to learn more. That’s I have, adhd.com/focused, yeah. And by figuring out the hard way, do you mean just kind of, like, try to muscle through it on your own and just feel like, you know, this is just the way I am. This is just the way it is. I guess, I guess I just suck, and I’ll always just suck. And like, the end, like, is that what you. Mean by figure it out the hard way. I

Ari Tuckman 30:01
mean, some of it is that it’s just that, like, I wouldn’t say acceptance so much as maybe resignation, those are not the same words agreed. And some of it is just, I don’t know, somehow stumbling upon, you know, like figuring out yourself, a thing that helps you be more effective. And lo and behold, this is like a commonly recommended ADHD strategy, because it works. You know, it’s a good idea. That’s

Kristen Carder 30:25
so true. Okay, so do you feel like we’re ready to move on to talk about the things that could be helpful? Yeah, all right, so let’s go ahead and start with treatment like, what are your thoughts about an ADHD er who wants to be productive? Do you? I’m kind of setting you up here, so let me just share my opinion, because I’ll just go ahead and share my opinion. My opinion is, yes, there’s so much that can be done, therapy and coaching and just education and learning and acceptance, like just all of that, without even talking about the medical treatment is so helpful, but the foundation of like a proper diagnosis, a medication that feels really good in your body, and for most people, they can find one, not everybody, but most. That for me and my experience has been like the best foundation for the therapeutic or coaching process is like having the foundation of understanding that, like, yes, this actually is ADHD and not something else that might be going on, and then, and then proper treatment for it. So that’s my opinion. I’m curious if that’s what you’re finding as well.

Ari Tuckman 31:35
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, in my first book, which was for clinicians, where I talked about this integrative treatment model, the order I wrote it, which there is something to it, it was education, meaning learning about ADHD as much as you can and getting good resources and not reinventing the wheel. Second was medication, because I do believe it can make a big difference. And by the way, if you feel like crap on your medication. Don’t tolerate that totally, right? Like, totally, it’s not, we’re not. It’s not chemo. We’re not curing cancer here, right? Like you don’t have to suffer through just to suffer. Work on something that’s both effective in the ways you need it to be, also that’s going to make you feel good or not feel terrible on it. So education, medication and then coaching, meaning practical strategies and ways to get stuff done in therapy, meaning ways of, sort of understanding yourself, maybe in a different light, addressing any of the CO occurring conditions, and just generally being more resilient and effective

Kristen Carder 32:36
totally. I just That’s like my wish for every single I just want that for all of you. Like, if we, I feel like everything would change if we all understood that the combination, you know, like, put it together and we can all function in a pretty decent manner. Yeah, there is a lot of privilege attached to, like, what you’re what you’re saying and what I’m saying, like, access to health care, money for coaching, money for therapy. And so I think that it would be important to mention that part that, like, not everyone is going to have access at this time. And I don’t know what your thoughts are, but what I always say to that is, if that’s not where you are right now, can we kind of make a plan to get there? Yeah, right. Like, is there a pathway to being able to maybe you’re diagnosed, but you can’t afford therapy, like, Okay, what’s the pathway to that who can help you, who can help you find, you, know, some sort of therapy or coaching or whatever. Because, yes, we need to acknowledge that not everyone has the same amount of access, and there’s still a pathway at some point, in my opinion, what do you think about that? Yeah. I

Ari Tuckman 34:01
mean, I think use the resources that you have, yeah, you know, in terms of people you know, in your community, and, yeah, whatever, whatever resources you can access, do so, but to also see it as this is an investment that will set you up for better things you know that learning how to manage your ADHD more effectively will have a benefit throughout all parts of your life, and that presumably there’s then, you know, good payback for the time and money and energy that you put in To kind of learning how to do this. It’s

Kristen Carder 34:42
good. So besides medication, education like besides that foundation, what else can somebody with ADHD do to help themselves be more productive? It’s a very broad question. Where would you like to go with that?

Ari Tuckman 34:59
Yeah, let me start with sleep, diet and exercise, right? Love it, hate it. I know it’s sometimes, yeah, I mean, like, Okay, this is a problem for all people, right? So, like, again, ADHD might make it worse, but it doesn’t invent a new problem. So, like, you know, just the basics of, like, generally getting enough sleep, of generally eating a healthy enough kind of a diet and the right amounts at the right time, generally, you know, moving enough that not because it honestly the reasons exercise are not to get in good shape that takes too long, and whatever, really the best motivation to exercise is, I will have a better day immediately afterwards, like I will feel better, I will be more productive, more focused. So that’s the reason to exercise, not because you’re going to look, you know, like Arnold Schwarzenegger or something, right? So there’s an old

Kristen Carder 35:59
reference,

Speaker 1 36:02
like Channing Tatum. So, um, so, like, just the basics, right? Of like, kind of filling the tank, right? Because if you’re sleep deprived, if you’re sort of hangry, it takes 1000 times more willpower to, like, do the thing that you don’t want to do, right? You’re just making it that much harder. But it’s also like, let’s recognize that this is the first stuff to go right. When someone is too busy, they have too much going on, when there’s too many demands, and they’re not prioritizing, or just life is crazy and busy, right? This is where we cut corners first, which then creates this sort of feedback loop. So you don’t need to be a vegan triathlete, right? Like, we don’t need that level of perfection. But honestly, if you’re getting six hours a night and instead you start getting six and a half, you’re not hitting bull’s eyes, but it’s better. You’re gonna feel better, you’re gonna function better, and it will set you up for better things. So, like, that’s kind of that again, that’s the foundation that you begin with. I

Kristen Carder 37:16
just want to speak to that, because what I hear is, I can’t sleep because I’m not productive, but then I’m not productive because I don’t sleep. And it is just this vicious cycle. And what I tell my clients is, there has to be a stopping point that you have to like. For me, it’s the clock. It’s not It’s not how much I’ve accomplished. Sure it’s the clock. So when the clock says 9pm I’m done. I’m all done. I’m also done parenting. I have three kids, and I’m just done parenting. So I will go do my own thing and like, I’m not I’m done. I’m all done.

Ari Tuckman 37:57
They just run wild and Dino run now it’s the neighbor’s problem. I don’t even just,

Kristen Carder 38:03
I don’t even care. I love them so much, but I can’t continue to, like, be on right, like, constantly. And so I put my 10 year old to bed around nine, 930 and then when he’s done, like the big boys are on their own, good luck. God be with you. Godspeed, yes. Like, you know, your bedtimes make it happen. But it’s because I tend to overwork. I tend to get my feelings of worthiness from what I produce. And so if I don’t say to myself, there’s a hard stop, I’ll just keep going and going and going right. And when I say to people like, let the clock be your guide, they’re like, but I haven’t got they want to let their list be the guide, sure, and then that the list is never ending. Like, if you’re a human adult, whether you have ADHD or not, the list never ends. I know it’s wild, so I think that we have to pull ourselves out of that trap of like I can’t sleep because I have to get more done and just say, like I have to sleep because the clock tells me it’s time for bed. And I think that

Ari Tuckman 39:12
that’s a really important idea for a number of different reasons, but the one that stands out to me is this idea of soft deadlines are unmotivating, you know, if it’s this thing of like, well, I’ll go to bed at some indeterminant point right then at noon. Where’s the pressure? You know? As opposed to, if you know, like, I got a hard stop at nine. Then hopefully it squeezes things down earlier into the day in a way that it doesn’t if it’s sort of left open. So part of it is that right is that hopefully you feel that pressure of the deadline a lot earlier, but it’s also what it does is. And it forces you, like we were talking in the beginning, to really think about what you’re doing, right? Like, what actually is more important than what? At some level, everything is important, but relative to other things, some things are more important than others, right? And we need to really, kind of think about it, of like, what really, really am I going to put my time in? Really? What am I going to accept? Like, nope.

Kristen Carder 40:27
I love that. I love the really, really, like, what really, really am I going to put my time into? Because if I fully understand that I have a limited amount of time, which is what you’re saying. I think, like, if there’s a hard stop, then time is limited, which no ADHD or wants to believe, by the way, right? Yeah. Like, I know I know you. I know me. None of us want to believe that time is actually limited. And so we just, like you said, we have that soft deadline of like, well, I’ll sleep eventually, or I’ll sleep tomorrow, I don’t even need to sleep today. I was asleep tomorrow. But if we can create a stricter deadline with ourselves, which requires a lot of internal boundary work, so that’s a whole other thing, yeah? But then we maybe feel that pressure, and we can maybe get rid of the things that don’t actually matter that much to us, yeah?

Ari Tuckman 41:18
And that is its own process, and especially when I get like, new people coming in, they’re just, like, drowning, right? There’s like, 8 million things going on, and they don’t even know what end is up, right? It’s like, when you go to the beach and you get crashed over a wave and, like, you don’t even know what direction is up or down, or where you just at some point you get dragged along the sand, or whatever part of you get scraped up. You’re like, okay, that’s down, you know? So part of it is trying to just get some space to, like, step back and start to make some choices, right? And some of it is, that’s a thing I need to do. Let’s get that thing banged out and done. And some of it is okay, yeah, we’re cutting that right. So you’re working on both sides. You’re taking things off the list and you’re throwing things off the list right. And to try to get it to some more manageable level, try to get a bit more self care, or, if their meds aren’t right, get them back to the prescriber. Or, you know, if they’re getting overwhelmed with anxious thoughts, or they’re feeling kind of depressed and hopeless, or if there’s some other things going on, like stuff with their kids that’s just taking a lot of time and mental energy, right? We’re trying to, like, put out as many fires as we can, to get them to a point where they can actually kind of really begin to think about what’s most important and what isn’t getting done. And, you know, some of that, and we, I don’t know that we’ve quite touched on this, but it’s that, like being okay, disappointing people, right? Which is a part of life. It’s a part of ADHD, and it’s a part of productivity, of, like, I will get to things today, but unfortunately, not your thing, yeah, you know, and feeling like you’re allowed to do it, and not praying for a miracle, right, that somehow it’s going to work out at the last minute. And, you know, it’s like, it’s always better to disappoint earlier than later, right? The last minute of like, oh, sorry, I didn’t get a chance to do it right? Is always worse, right? Because then you’ve kind of screwed the other person the opportunity to find a plan B, yeah,

Kristen Carder 43:27
I think that most of us with ADHD think that neurotypical humans don’t disappoint other people, right, which is a lie. Tell me about that lie.

Ari Tuckman 43:37
So, yeah, I mean, I think it’s an important point, right? It’s this idea of like, oh, everyone else just gets her stuff done, yeah? I mean, sort of, but, but no, right? That, like, sometimes it, it isn’t worth it, you know, and it is better to let somebody know earlier and to recognize, in some ways, I’m doing them a favor by telling them no now, yeah, because I don’t think I’m going to be able to pull it off at the end, or I’m going to hate it, and it won’t be worth it. So like, I’m just going to tell this person, you know what, I’m not going to be able to get to this or maybe I will, but not by Tuesday, but maybe next Friday, right? Maybe that’s the alternative, but feeling like you have that right, and you have that agency to be able to do it, or it’s just breaking the hard truth, which is not going to happen anyway, right? So let’s just be honest about it, and to instead focus on the things you really can do well, and to think about how to do that?

Kristen Carder 44:41
Yeah, I mean that in itself, I think, is just such deep work, like being so understanding of who you are, what you’re good at, where you should bother to put your time and energy and effort and like brain, body power. Or and then allowing other people to have their own experience and not try to be this codependent, like I’m gonna fix it for you, and it’s just so it’s just hard to be human. It

Ari Tuckman 45:12
is and it’s hard to tolerate other people having a bad time, especially when we feel like we made that bad time, right? So to say, like, sorry, I’m not going to be able to do that for you. It will be uncomfortable for them, but probably it’s not the the worst moment of their month, you know? I mean, right? Like, they’re probably gonna be okay, yeah, like, they will figure it out, it is their responsibility to manage their disappointment. Now, if you bail on them at the last second, then, like, okay, that sort of is on you, and I think you do owe them a bit of something agreed, but letting someone know beforehand with plenty of time is not the same thing as screwing it up at the last minute, right? So like, let’s not conflate those two, right? And to recognize that there’s very much a difference between making an active choice, making a well considered decision, of I can’t do this, or I don’t want to do this, versus scrambling and forgetting something, and you know, whatever procrastinating and then dropping the ball. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 46:24
knowing deep down you’re never gonna get to it, but not wanting to tell them. So just not telling them, not that I’ve ever done that. I’m just saying I’ve heard that happen. Sometimes listeners tell you Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. So we’ve talked about building the foundation with like medication and education, and really just like taking care of your basic needs, like sleeping, getting enough calories in your body, hopefully some of them decently nutritious. And what was other thing moving your body? Yeah, exercise, some sort of Exercise and Movement, and we’ve talked about making sure you know what you care about, know what you want to do, what’s worth doing, what’s not worth doing. What else do you think are some important ways that ADHD ers can help themselves to be productive? Yeah,

Ari Tuckman 47:16
one of the things I often recommend is kind of what’s called time blocking, but it’s like taking stuff off of your to do list and actually putting it into your schedule, right? So this, like, you know, you and I set up an appointment for this, so it wasn’t like, I’ll see you at some point, right? So this was a time specific task, like, we both knew when and where it was going to be. But then there’s other stuff, like going through email or working on your monthly expense report or researching, I don’t know, summer camp options, or whatever, right? Like it has happened at some point, but it’s not a specific time. These are the things that tend to sit on a to do list, you know, forever. And they, like, you just don’t get to them

Kristen Carder 48:06
taking up so much mental space. Take, like, feeling, I can feel the weight of it in my body, yeah. So I just carry that around with me. It’s like, I don’t know, like a fanny pack or something like, not a cute one, right? Of just like all of the weight of the I should get to that sometime

Ari Tuckman 48:24
right tasks. So assuming it’s actually a task that you’re going to do right now, one of those that we talked about, that you’re like, that ain’t happening. Dump it, to actually put it into your schedule, you know what? On Thursday afternoon at two, I’m going to work on this, and to really start making a point of dropping things in. Now, it’s not a blood oath, right? You’re not like committed. You’re not contractually obligated to research summer camp on Thursday afternoon, but if it’s in the schedule, it’s more likely to happen. Anything that’s put in the schedule is more likely to happen if other things come up, fine, just put it somewhere else, but at least it’s somewhere, you know. And also, one of the side benefits of this is the more of this stuff you drop into your schedule, the more you see your schedule actually fill up. Yes, which makes it easier when someone’s like, Hey, can you do this and you’re like, you know what? I don’t think I can or this is not a good week. So, um, so there’s that benefit as well. I think the the hesitation a lot of folks with ADHD have is, how do I know what I want to do on Thursday afternoon? Yeah, right. Maybe I don’t want to research summer camps. Maybe I wanted to do some other thing right, and there’s a sense of like I’m going to be locked in and obligated, or it’s another failure where I didn’t do the thing I was supposed to do, which I get like I do understand that pressure, but also to recognize this is you doing this for you, right? Nobody else. Is looking over your shoulder about it, and that having it there makes it more likely to happen, and that part of it is then you need to kind of generate the motivation to do it right, which kind of brings me to this idea, which is, I’ve had plenty of clients give me some version of, yeah, alarms don’t really work for me, you know, like, I set the alarm, but then I just turn it off, and I don’t do the thing. And it took me a while to catch on to this, but it then I sort of realized I’m like, You know what? Actually, the alarm worked perfectly. The job of the alarm is to tell you, hey, it’s that time. That’s it. The alarm makes you aware, right? Increases awareness. It doesn’t increase motivation, right? The alarm doesn’t, sort of, I don’t know, it doesn’t pull out a gun and it doesn’t give you a cookie, right? It’s not about now that the alarm went off, Boy, am I psyched to look up summer camps, right? All it is meant to do is to generate awareness, the generating motivation that’s still on you in that moment, right? Love. So again, medication is helpful. Not being exhausted is helpful. Not being completely overwhelmed by every single thing in your life is helpful. But you know, so that kind of, again, sets the foundation, but then in that moment, being able somehow to connect to the future benefit of it, you know, like, right now, I don’t feel like doing this, but also I’m never going to feel like doing this, so let’s be honest there. So if the question is, do I want to do this, the answer is always no, wrong question, right? The better question is, how will I feel about this later, like after I have done this? How will I feel about it? Right? And you know, if it’s March, let’s say when you’re looking this up, right? It’s really not until June that this is an issue. But come June, how am I going to feel about it? Do I want to have a really good summer? Do I want to be miserable with the kids making me crazy all summer? Right? Because, of course, the problem with summer camp is, if you wait till summer, there’s no camps available, right? So if you wait till summer, you better hope your kids get arrested, because the only place with openings is juvie, right, like that. That’s the ADHD tax of summer camp, right? Yes. So, so good, yeah. Or you hope you get arrested so you can go somewhere, right? Either one is a much better alternative. But you know, the problem is, in March, you’re like, doesn’t

Kristen Carder 52:43
feel urgent, right? Doesn’t feel necessary. There’s so many things that I feel like, the pressure to get done today for tomorrow.

Ari Tuckman 52:52
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that that is part of the challenge of productivity, yeah, and it’s especially the challenge with ADHD, right? It said you don’t feel the future as strongly, right? So it’s sort of like, that’s somebody else’s problem, but that’s somebody else is me in the future, right? It’s not someone it’s not your neighbor’s problem, right? It’s, it’s going to be your problem. But, you know, it’s sort of this thing that, like any all people we don’t connect as much to our future self, which is why, let’s say people second saving for retirement. Sure, you know, um, but especially with ADHD, you don’t feel that future self version of yourself as much. So when you’re sitting there on a dreary March day and you’re like summer camp. The thing to do is to imagine yourself in that moment. Here I am, last day of school. How am I feeling about it? If I know I got the kids set up with some good camps, they’re going to have a good summer. I’m going to have a good summer. You know, how is, how does that moment feel? Versus how do I feel if I, you know, third week of July, I still don’t know what they’re doing. I found them some camps, but they’re going to kind of complain also, by the way, they’re only half day camps. Also, by the way, they’re like, 45 minutes away. So I think I’ve got 20 minutes if I were to drive home and drive back, I’ll have 20 minutes at home. So like, how many targets can I find? You know that? Like, how much Dish Detergent do we need, right? Like, imagining that moment and kind of compare and contrast, how do those two future me’s feel? And like, that’s going to be the motivation. And again, calling back to where we started. It shouldn’t only be I want to avoid the terrible outcome that is not a good motivator. Rather, I want the good outcome. I want a good summer. I want my kids to have a good summer. I want to feel effective. Active in my life. I want when I’m talking to my friends about, like, Hey, what are you guys doing? I want to feel proud of like, yes, yeah, hey, we got a good summer, right? As opposed to, like, worst parent ever yet again failed my children. I hope my friends don’t ask too many detailed questions about this camp I found for my kids, right? So, like, you know, totally, it’s the good stuff again, it is the good stuff that is what will motivate you, more than just constantly kind of pulling your chestnuts out of the fire.

Kristen Carder 55:32
It will motivate us if we believe that we deserve the good, yeah, and I think that that can often be this, like deeper, underlying self sabotage II. Thing that comes up is like, I don’t actually believe that I deserve to have peace. I don’t actually believe that I deserve to, you know, accomplish things step by step, and then not have anything to worry about. Yeah, and I think that’s probably the deeper work that you do with your clients. And like, if listener you are resonating with that that’s a great place to start in therapy is like, I’m realizing that I self sabotage, because maybe I don’t when I envision future me. I don’t believe that he or she deserves, like, good things, yeah?

Ari Tuckman 56:22
Or even if, somehow, as a human in the world, I deserve it, I don’t think I can pull it off. So like, yeah

Ari Tuckman 56:30
for other people, yeah. Like, why bother? It’s not gonna happen anyway. You know how it always falls apart in three days? Yeah? So why get my hopes up only to be disappointed again? You know, that sort of acceptance of chaos, kind of, yes, you know, acceptance of the status quo, yeah, um, you know, that does keep people stuck in these kind of situations. I like it doesn’t have to be like this.

Kristen Carder 56:53
I really love the concept of, like, your future self. I think that is a really, really helpful concept. And one of the things that I did a couple years ago when I was really working on my time management was in my alarms, set the reminder as like, how I would want to feel, how I would feel after. So it’s kind of like in the alarm, the alarm title is like, get this done. Get it done now. Don’t put it off. You’re gonna feel so much better. Like a very direct which, you know, it takes some executive function to, like, set that up. But there are things, and even now, there’s, like, silly things that I avoid because I just hate it. I don’t want to do it, I don’t want to do it, but I like it’s connected to the business moving forward, or the podcast, whatever, and it’s like, Just do it. And in my alarm, it’s like, just, could you please get it done so we don’t have to do it next week? Yeah, you know, like that plea from self to self, please just get it done. And I think that works. It reminds me, like, oh yeah, I really don’t want to have to do this later, you know, I’ll just do fine. I’ll just do it. Now,

Ari Tuckman 58:04
there is something to that of not just the sort of tangible benefit of I did this thing and now this thing happens, but I think there’s also something for the sort of intangible of, like, I just did this thing, and maybe the benefit hasn’t even occurred yet, but like, I feel good about the fact that I did it. I’m going to give myself a bit of credit. I’m going to acknowledge the fact that it was hard, and I’m going to feel good that, like, this is the little stuff that big things are built from, and that it, you know, it’s easy. It’s easy to miss the things you do. Well, right? We’re all programmed to notice the negatives of like, well, screwed that up, right? So you got to counterbalance by intentionally noticing some of the positives, not in this, like, you know, sort of overly sappy kind, but like, in a legit kind of a way. And to not discount it as like, oh well, everyone else just does it without thinking, why am I throwing myself a parade, right? So, like, not that either, but just like, yeah, that was, that was a good thing. Like, there it is. That’s me doing a better job on this kind of stuff, you know. So to really sort of be intentional about not just the doing, but the noticing and the appreciating. A little bit of a pat on the back.

Kristen Carder 59:26
I mean, do you feel like that’s easy for people with ADHD, because I can hear all of them screaming, yeah. They’re all like, What are you talking about? Yeah, I’m not gonna let myself feel accomplished for something that is so easy for someone else. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 59:44
do you know, like,

Kristen Carder 59:45
how do we, how do we, like, give permission for people to feel good? I just, I feel like that is such a big part of working, of what’s working against someone with ADHD being productive. Live is this, like, exactly what you’re saying, like, Hey, you should feel actually accomplished about getting the thing done. Yeah. And an ADHD is, like, No, right? I’m not gonna What are you talking about?

Ari Tuckman 1:00:10
I think some of it is, it’s just that thing of, like, especially if you’re scrambling, right, if you’re rushing ahead to the next thing, you don’t even pause long enough to consider it. So somebody’s just like, it’s just gone. So I think a piece of it is that, I think, but there is that other thing of exactly like you said, because for other people, it’s easy, therefore I can’t give myself credit for doing it. But the thing of it is, we all have things that are easy, right? So it doesn’t feel like a big deal to have done it, but and then when someone else is like, oh my god, I can’t believe it, you’re like, whatever, that’s true, right? So we automatically, kind of dismiss the things that are easy for us, but to recognize that not everything is easy or hard for every it’s not universal, right? Like, some things are very easy, and some things are much harder. So it doesn’t matter if it’s easy to someone else. It only matters if it’s easy or hard to you. Can you say that again? It doesn’t matter if it’s easy or hard for other people. They’re not the one who did it. You’re the one who did it. If it was hard, if it took intentional effort, if it took kind of goodwill to do it, and good intentions, and, you know, some good effort, note it right. Give yourself a little bit of credit for it. That’s good,

Kristen Carder 1:01:35
man. There’s so much more. I feel like this is so valuable. I so appreciate you being here. The time has flown by for me, and I know there’s so much more we could talk about. And I know you have a course on being productive for adults with ADHD. I know you have a book coming out, if his agent will just call him back, if you could just give them an email, phone call, something. We gotta get this book out. We need it. We need it. We like the ADHD community. We need this book. So as we wrap up, what do you feel like is left that you would, that you’d like to share for somebody listening, who’s like, I really just want to be more productive.

Ari Tuckman 1:02:21
I think the thing I would want to talk about is this idea of how much other people get to vote on your desired level of productivity. Right? Of everybody’s got opinions. We all have opinions about everything, but not everybody gets to vote, right? And it’s easy for some people, especially if those people happen to be female and growing up, well, I wasn’t gonna say in the Western world, but let’s be honest anywhere. Yeah, right. It’s easy to feel like other people get more of a vote, right? Like here are these expectations, and you’re just supposed to hit them. Now, obviously, if that person is your boss, they should, they’re going to have more decision making power than you are if that person is your spouse or a really good friend. You know that’s relationship of equals, but you guys both got to be equal, right? So, like, both people need input on it, but I think it’s easy to sort of put yourself in a position of somehow other people get more of a vote. I need to make sure I hit the mark that they set, which is really sort of a setup for you to fail, and them to be disappointed, either in what gets done or how it gets done, possibly when it gets done. So to have, like, some really direct conversations about it, to not promise what you can deliver, to figure out what is most important to you, what is most important to them, to kind of set some good expectations. Talk about, how do we support each other? And, by the way, what’s not helpful and supportive, right? Which means, how do we manage our frustration and disappointment? And you know, yes, things need to get done, and if you don’t do it, maybe somebody else has to pick up the slack, which sets up their resentment, right? So, like, we don’t want to go there either. So like, how do we talk about what needs to be done? How do we talk about what each of us want here. You know, how do we handle the fact of like, you know what? I know it stresses you out when I don’t do this thing. But here’s the deal, it’s not really my thing. I I don’t actually care about making the bed. I know it’s important to you. If you want to make the bed made, I encourage you to do it. Right? Might be one thing, or I don’t care about the bed body. Care about you. I will do a generous thing, and I will help you make the bed because I know that matters to you, because you do generous things for me. And that’s how a good relationship works, right? We’re both good to each other in various ways. Or. Right? And sometimes you just take one for the team. But, you know, being able to have those conversations and really figure out what’s getting done, and to not fall into this situation of one person always feeling behind and the other person always feeling resentful and like the boss or the mom or the whatever, yeah,

Kristen Carder 1:05:18
I just, I’m like, yes, yes, yes, and and I, I think it’s so hard to navigate, especially in a partnership, marriage relationship, where often time the woman is going to, like, set up the relationship, where she’s, like, taking on a lot, and then maybe kids are added in, and a job is added in, and it’s like, oh, I can’t do all of this anymore, but the expectation was already established. And so then there’s all of this disappointment. And it doesn’t have to be just female. I’m sure that men struggle with this as well, where it’s just like, Yeah, I used to be able to mow the lawn every Saturday at 9am before we had kids, before I got this second job, before blah, blah, blah, and so there, there needs to be, like, a reassessment, maybe, and like a reestablishment of, like, who’s taking care of what? I don’t know. If you’ve, you’ve probably heard of the book, I haven’t read it, but the book fair play, I know kind of I knew that was coming. Yeah, I was like a typical millennial woman. Of course, I’m gonna mention that book. I don’t I don’t know much about that book. It I think maybe is, like a little unkind to men. I’m not sure, but I think what it probably does well is like, lay out every single thing that families have to deal with, and the mental load of like you mentioned, summer camps like that is usually the mother’s job to, like, take care of the summer camp, and the Father’s not usually even concerned about summer and just Like, Oh, whatever. And so things like that, where it’s okay to pause and say, Wait, why is this my job? Yeah, yeah. And why are you mad about me getting this job done? That like neither of us really agreed would be my job, it was just kind of assumed. So is that kind of what you’re talking about? Yeah.

Ari Tuckman 1:07:18
I mean, that’s definitely part of it, and that, as much as you know, the sort of work, domestic workload balance has gotten closer to equal than used to be from let’s say the 50s, it’s definitely still not equal, right? And maybe there’s, you know, some exception families out there, but still, you know, in heterosexual couples, the wife is still bearing disproportionate share of the kind of care and coordination of the family. If the guy has ADHD and isn’t doing as much of his part well, has ADHD that’s not well managed right, then the wife takes on more of his share. If the woman has ADHD, the guy takes on some of her share, but not as much as the neighbors next door, right where the dude has ADHD, and instead the wife is just killing herself to try to keep up with it all so and

Kristen Carder 1:08:13
never really succeeding, and never really making anybody happy. And I literally had a conversation with a client about this yesterday, the same exact scenario where she was feeling just like I can’t do anything right in my own home. Yeah, like, what a terrible way to feel. I

Ari Tuckman 1:08:30
know. I know. And if you’re the guy with ADHD with an exhausted, resentful, kind of pissed off wipe, they also feel like they can’t do anything right in their home 100% and too often they’re not right, but also sometimes they are. But, you know, so so, like, that’s part of the deeper conversation. I mean, some of it is a conversation with ourselves, but there’s also a conversation with our spouse, of like, what are we doing here? Does this work? Is this really still, what’s best for all of us or not, right? And being able to really sort of think about it as a couple, as a family, what are we taking on? What are we not? Like, there’s this pressure of, like, running our kids around all sorts of things. They add value, but at a certain point they take away value. I think totally, um, you know. So one of the things that I recommend, especially for busy families who have, especially if you have, like, more Variable schedules, so it’s not like you both work nine to five and whatever, um, at least once a week to have a sit down. Of like, let’s talk about what’s what, what is happening, who’s going, where, what needs to be done. You know, by the way, you need to have everything in your schedule before we sit down. You also had to have looked at your email and to check team snap to see that soccer practice got moved team snap, yeah, burn it down so, you know. So you need to do your own work to be informed before you show up for the. Meeting, but that’s the time to have the conversation about, like, Okay, wait a second. They moved Tuesday’s soccer practice, yeah, from six to eight. Like, no, we’re not doing an eight o’clock practice. Or, you know, there’s a conflict with the play, so we’re only doing one of them, which is it gonna be, yeah, right? Or, like, wait a second, I’m I can’t drive the kids wait on No, I got a thing on Tuesday. I can’t do that. That, right? That’s way better to have that conversation on Sunday than it is have it on Tuesday 20 minutes before it’s time to go. So like, having those conversations, deciding what is being done, deciding what is not being done and making those hard choices there, rather than setting up this thing. That looks like a problem of productivity, but it’s not. It’s a problem of planning. It’s a problem of assertiveness, of setting boundaries, of knowing what it is that you want, but it shows up in the last minute, as if it’s a productivity or time management problem, but it’s not. That was big. That was really big. And back to the beginning of the episode, yeah, that

Kristen Carder 1:11:10
was really big because, yes, you’re absolutely right. It ends up looking like a productivity issue, and usually the person with ADHD is going to be at fault, sure, quote, unquote, yep.

Ari Tuckman 1:11:23
They’re the obvious suspect. Let’s

Kristen Carder 1:11:25
yep, yep, yep. And we’ve already conditioned the relationship to be so that the person with ADHD is always taking the fall. You know, it’s the fall guy for all of the problems. But it’s not actually productivity issue. I love it, and I want, like listener that was so big, I want you to hear it. If we if we have the conversations, if we demand equal partnership in our relationships, no matter who you are in the relationship, you demand equal partnership and sharing the load. And yes, sometimes you’ll take more, sometimes they’ll take more, but like a shared equal partnership, and planning and setting boundaries, knowing what you want, and then those last minute things don’t just happen, and we can’t just be blamed for it, you know? Yeah,

Ari Tuckman 1:12:15
it’s big, yeah, yeah. So it means thinking ahead. It means feeling like you can be assertive and, you know, sort of dealing with stuff early now when, when your kids throws up in the middle of math class, like, okay, that is like, reverb. Can do it. We’ll do it. Things happen, yeah, screws up all your plans, whatever, but, but trying to prevent those, I don’t know, like that, sort of not feeling like you’re always living life one step ahead of the Avalanche or a step behind it as it were, or

Kristen Carder 1:12:46
under it as it’s coming down on you. Yes, exactly. That’s so good. Thank you so much. This has been so fun. I’m so glad that you were able to come in and just take the time to do this. Tell us where we can find you. Tell us about your course. Tell us about all of the things. Sure. So

Ari Tuckman 1:13:04
best place to get information about me is adultadhdbook.com, I’ve got all sorts of stuff. If you go to the speaking page, I’ve got a bunch of, like, recordings of various things that I’ve done. Also, if you just Google me, you’ll find all sorts of things. But in terms of the productivity course, you can also find that on the speaking page of adult adhdbook.com it’ll link through, but it’s basically I put together, like 35 videos, like roughly 10 minutes long. It’s like five hours worth of content, but you can sort of click through in any order, just addressing all these things that we’ve been talking about

Kristen Carder 1:13:40
that’s so good. And do you want to plug the Chad conference too? Oh yeah,

Ari Tuckman 1:13:44
I definitely do. So if you really want to go deep dive, nerd out on ADHD and meet a bunch of really awesome people, you should definitely check out the big ADHD conference. So we do it every year. This year, it’s going to be in Anaheim, California, which is near La November 14 to the 16th. Tons of amazing speakers. But honestly, like, as amazing as the speakers are, some of the conversations in the hallway or the coffee line are just as good. So you know, you’ll see a bunch of famous speakers and authors, and they’re just standing there. You can just go up and talk to them. So definitely check it out. So, C, H, A, D, d.org, is kind of the easiest way to get there. Awesome.

Kristen Carder 1:14:26
Thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Awesome.

Ari Tuckman 1:14:28
I appreciate being here. This is fantastic

Kristen Carder 1:14:32
if you’re being treated for your ADHD, but you still don’t feel like you’re reaching your potential. You’ve got to join focus. It’s my monthly coaching membership where I teach you how to tame your wild thoughts and create the life that you’ve always wanted, no matter what season of life you’re in or where you are in the world. Focus is for you. All materials and call recordings are stored in the site for you to access at your convenience. Go to Ihaveadhd.com/focused, for all the info you.