Kristen Carder 0:00
Hey, what’s up? This is Kristen Carter, and you have tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated. I am caffeinated. I’m not super regulated, I’ve got to be honest. But I am ready to roll, and I’m so glad you’re here today. I am recording for the first time in a beautiful studio in Philadelphia. I am stoked, because we are making the transition from audio only recording to video. And so for those of you who enjoy watching your podcast on YouTube, I’m here for you. I got you. I’m so glad that you’re here. So if you’re loving this, or if you enjoy the content, please make sure to like, subscribe, drop a comment, I will personally respond to all of the comments posted in the first week of this video, and I think you’re really gonna love it. And for those of you who are listening on audio, don’t you worry. I know you’re my OGS, nothing is gonna change for you. But for those of you who enjoy watching on YouTube, I’m so excited to be here. I’m really glad you’re here. Let’s get started today. I have with me one of my favorite people on the planet, my sister, Adrienne himmelright, and she’s going to talk all about her journey of being an ADHD er who struggles with people pleasing, and how she’s been able to overcome that in her own life and be a support now to hundreds of people who want to stop people pleasing so Adrienne,

Adrienne Himelright 1:23
welcome, thanks. I’m

Kristen Carder 1:25
really glad that you’re here. Me

Adrienne Himelright 1:26
too. I’m excited.

Kristen Carder 1:27
Tell me the most outrageous thing that you’ve done in order to people, please. Someone. What’s like? Give us something good. What’s the most outrageous thing that you have done to people? Please.

Adrienne Himelright 1:42
There are so there’s so many. One of the things that has been the most, I think, like the craziest probably, is I emptied a retirement account to go to a destination wedding. That was a few years ago. We made some changes since then,

Kristen Carder 2:02
wait, stop you, empty the retirement account,

Adrienne Himelright 2:06
like my work, retirement, a destination wedding, and then also put, like, 1000s of dollars on a credit card to do that. So bad.

Kristen Carder 2:16
What was that like? What was that like for you? Um,

Adrienne Himelright 2:19
it felt like there was no choice. Like, honestly, my poor husband, he was like, This is not a good idea. We do not have the money to do this. And I was like, We will not be in pictures. We must go. He was like, I was telling him, I’m like, we’re gonna miss out. They’re gonna they might reject us if we do, like, if we don’t go and so we emptied an account and put lots of money on a credit card. And, I mean, we had a great time. Once we were all in, we were like, we’re gonna, we’re going for it. So we had a great time. But I would not recommend doing that to any of your listeners. Maybe not, not a good choice. That was

Kristen Carder 3:03
the was bad, the emotions that come up for us when we’re faced with a scenario like that, it must have been so strong for you to lead you to empty a retirement account. Like What emotions do you think you are experiencing?

Adrienne Himelright 3:21
I think, I mean, lots of fear. I think I was really afraid. I think I was, I mean, FOMO, I have such intense FOMO, I’m going to miss out. They are going to be upset if we don’t go. I don’t know, there was a lot of manipulation on my part towards my husband, and just like guilting, like we’re gonna miss out, we have to go, poor guy. So we’ve come a long way since you’ve

Kristen Carder 3:54
come a long way, and now you help other people, stop people pleasing. So I wouldn’t read your bio, because I just think it’s so beautiful. Adrienne is a dedicated life coach specializing in helping people pleasers recognize their worth and build self trust. Adrienne deeply understands the compulsion to say yes, despite personal reluctance, the anxiety of disappointing people and the feeling of powerlessness that can dominate daily life. Can you tell me a little bit about that powerlessness? What is it about that experience that causes us to people? Please?

Adrienne Himelright 4:33
I think so. It’s one of the feelings that I dislike the most, and one of the feelings where, when I’m coaching my clients, I when I can see or hear powerlessness in them. It Like It irks me, and I have just this desire like that is not true at all. It just is a the powerlessness is almost I feel like you feel stuck, like there’s no other option for. You, you have to be saying yes or choosing whatever is in front of you, and the feeling of feeling stuck or like you don’t have any options, that is the feeling that just feels really trapped and very, really isolating, too. It’s very lonely in the powerlessness. Is

Kristen Carder 5:20
that how you felt when you emptied your retirement account?

Adrienne Himelright 5:22
Awful. I felt so powerless. I was like, we’ve got no other option. We’re gonna do damage to her. That’s the part that’s the worst for people pleasers, is we damage ourselves in the process. Like no one else got hurt in the process, but we it was like a self harm to ourselves, which is, really, it’s so sad.

Kristen Carder 5:41
It’s so

terrible. Yeah,

so what’s your ADHD story you have ADHD? When were you diagnosed? What? What’s your journey been like with ADHD?

Adrienne Himelright 5:52
So I wasn’t diagnosed until college, but I remember, like, really struggling. I was just telling a friend about this the other day, so she was asking me about it, and I remember struggling a ton in high school to settle down to study for exams. I remember like, running up and down the stairs to try to exhaust myself, to be able to, like, have the discipline to sit down to study, or I wouldn’t start studying until, you know, like midnight the exam was the next day, I’d be up till 3am like, studying for this exam and just cramming. Yeah, so, yeah, when I was in college, I finally got diagnosed, and then started to get medicated. And that was, I’m being nervous about being medicated. Like, is it gonna change my whole personality? Will I not be fun anymore? What’s gonna happen? You know? But it has been incredible. And now, like even the other morning, I was like, running around, getting the kids ready for something, and our babysitter walked in, and I was like, I have no idea what time it is. I did not know that was the time. And I was like, I didn’t take my medicine. Let me go back. Let me take my medicine, because she showed up, and I was, like, very absent of time. So

Kristen Carder 7:04
I remember having conversations with you, so I’m six and a half years older. I was medicated, you know, in college as well, but had some years under my belt before you were diagnosed and medicated. And I do remember you saying, I’m afraid to take medication. I’m afraid it’s gonna take the spark out of my personality. You had a lot of part of your identity was just like being the fun one and spontaneous. And do you feel like it? It downplayed that part of you? No,

Adrienne Himelright 7:36
I don’t think so at all. I think it’s actually helped me, like, manage my fun parts better, like, who I give my energy to, has been, I mean, that’s like, with people pleasing, in general, has been able to manage, like, who I give my time to, but I think now, like, I get to have a great time and still be very spontaneous. But, yeah, I don’t think that it doesn’t take that part of me away. Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I have better judgment, but sometimes just depends. Yeah, part

Kristen Carder 8:04
of that, like, you know, personality Spark is like, I don’t care what happens, and I don’t, I’m not going to think about the future and like, that’s when we empty retirement accounts. Yeah, so when did you realize that you were a people pleaser. When did that come to the surface for you? I

Adrienne Himelright 8:25
think I knew that’s a great question. I think I knew since I was in high school, probably, or maybe even middle school, that I wow, that I was people pleasing, because I was also so part of people pleasing. I don’t know if people get this part, but it there’s also a lot of manipulation with people pleasing. So when you you know, learn what certain people like or what they enjoy, you can kind of skew what activities you do or how they respond to you or like with ADHD, because I wasn’t good at time management and would show up late. I knew how to like, be really kind to people before I dropped the bomb of like, and I’m gonna be an hour late, so, but like, you’re amazing, and I love being your friend, and you’re so kind, yeah, so I think I started doing that for had been doing that for years. Let’s

Kristen Carder 9:20
talk about that manipulation for a second, because I think that’s actually in those moments. It’s an adaptive coping skill like you. In order to stay safe, in order to not be rejected, in order to stay in the good graces of whoever it is, you learn to charm them. Sure, we’re charming those manipulation you’re learning to like,

Adrienne Himelright 9:42
I don’t think you think of it as manipulation. Yeah, I think it’s just more like, I’m afraid you’re gonna be mad at me. I’m afraid you’re gonna reject me. Let me be super nice, let me make you laugh, let me have a good time, and then let me tell you the bad news, or, you know, if they. Right, if they responded like, you knew they were upset, but they didn’t read you out, you’re like, oh my gosh, you’re such a good friend, yeah, not hating thank you for not hating me, yes. And they’re like, Oh, no problem. Yeah. So I think that is, like, a big that started in middle school and kind of continued through, yeah, into, I mean, like adult years. And I think, like the other aspects of just being so afraid of rejection and really afraid of people being like, unkind, yeah, was a really, it was just really easy to people please your way into like, Oh, they’re happy, great. I don’t want anyone to be mad at me, upset with me. I could not handle that. There’s

Kristen Carder 10:40
so much research on how, how much more often people with ADHD are rejected than their neurotypical peers. So as a child and adolescent, we experience so much more rejection and people pleasing and perfectionism as well, kind of on the other end of that. But people pleasing is just a very natural response to, like, rejection and a coping skill to really try to protect yourself from it. Yeah,

Adrienne Himelright 11:16
because, like, normal skills that I feel like people who don’t have ADHD their brain works in different ways. And so like, normal daily tasks and things that don’t maybe feel like a big deal to other people are like, can be really difficult for us. So like group project things, thing deadlines, like showing up to class on time, showing up to like, lunch with a friend on time, not forgetting that you actually scheduled two people for the same thing on the same day, and then you have to tell one of them you can’t do it. Or, you know, there’s just so much that you’re like, we’re not good at basic life skills sometimes, yeah. And so to make up for that, being able to people please, was a really easy alternative to like people will still like me, and I’m kind of covering up a lot of my shortcomings. I’m doing a ton of work on the back end to do that, yeah, but covering up some of those shortcomings for sure.

Kristen Carder 12:09
Do you feel like it started in middle school? Or did your like, where did you learn to people, please? Was it around that time? Or I know the answer, but I’m just setting you up with the question. I know that’s awkward, but

Adrienne Himelright 12:21
so, I mean, it has been since I was a child. So I was grew up in a really unhealthy home. We grew up in a really unhealthy home, and so a lot of like, unhealthy dynamics in the like, with our parents and within us as kids, and it wasn’t a very stable or steady environment, especially emotionally. Yeah. So one of the ways that I really learned to protect myself is to people, please, especially with our parents. So if they were like you, become really acutely alert to people’s emotions. And so if I could tell there were high or negative emotions, which there usually were, it was really easy for me to like they, you want to do this. Sure I would love to do that, even if I did not want to do that. I was tired, whatever you know, I would just agree with with that. I was really acutely, like attuned to their emotional needs, right? So like, if I’m like, oh, Mom’s gonna feel really sad if someone doesn’t go with her in the car, because the other two want to go with Dad. So like, even though I want to be with my sisters, I’ll go with mom instead to make her feel happy or loved or whatever it is. So there was a lot, I mean, that started from a young, young age, and then just it was a coping mechanism and a skill that I learned. And I’m like, Oh, it works with them. It works with these people too. Really keeps working. I’m going to continue to do that, yeah, even though it was really harmful to me in the process.

Kristen Carder 13:55
Yeah, it’s so interesting. And we talk about this all the time on the podcast, that so many of the coping mechanisms that we develop in childhood are adaptive. They’re wonderful. Thank God we develop them, because they do keep us safe. They keep us protected. They keep us like in the good graces of our caregivers so we can get our needs met. But then eventually, along along the way, they become maladaptive, and then all of the sudden, it’s just harmful to us instead of helpful. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Adrienne Himelright 14:27
I think that is, like, I think people pleasing can be good in certain ways, like you said, right? Like, it’s very protective, and it’s also, you know, it’s a way to connect with people when it’s not manipulative, when it’s not, you know, a way to make them, you know, think of you in a certain way. I think the part where it becomes really damaging is when it starts to harm you and negatively impact you and your relationships. Because there’s not, I’ve really learned there’s not a lot of honesty when you’re people pleasing, because you’re always just. Falling into like, whatever they’d like, whatever would make them happy. So you don’t actually get to be known in any way. You’re very there’s no authenticity. There’s not a lot of autonomy of like, who you are as an individual. It’s all very like, Sure, that sounds great. You’re so easygoing. Is always like, you’re so relaxed and easygoing. I’m like, I know I really am inside. I’m like, I hate this. This is so boring. I would rather be doing X, Y and Z, but I’m too afraid to rock the boat or be rejected by you to say that. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with it. Like, Sure, that sounds great.

Kristen Carder 15:39
You’ve described the experience as a people pleaser, as being really lonely. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, I

Adrienne Himelright 15:49
think the loneliness just comes with the dishonesty of not like no one actually knowing who I am or what I like or what I enjoy or what my opinions are, because it’s too there’s so much fear around being honest and the rejection of someone like you. You like that. That’s the worst man. You know, it could be something so simple, like a type of movie. Like, I wouldn’t even tell the truth about what kind of movie I liked, what kind of food I liked, like, whatever is great. Yeah, sure, I don’t care. Like, that’s fine. And now, you know, I’m like, I hate that. I cannot see that, or this looks boring, or I don’t even really like watching movies. I don’t like them. They’re so boring I can’t sit for that long. I would rather connect in a different way. I don’t want to watch this. But the loneliness of that is, you’re really you self isolate, like you’re surrounded by people, but extremely lonely, which is a wild concept. I had so many friends in high school, college, like surrounded by so many people, and no one knew who I was. And when I stopped people pleasing, I had to relearn who I was. I know, I didn’t know what kind of eggs I liked, I didn’t know like, what kind of movies I liked. I didn’t know if I I didn’t know my own style, like, clothing wise, I didn’t know what I liked to wear, because I would always just be like, What do you think they’re like, Oh, that looks great. And like, well, it feels terrible, and I hate the way it looks, but you said it looks great, so it must be great. Yes, there was so much like, unlearning and relearning who I was, and then really nervous. Like, I hope these people are on board with it, like, especially my husband, yeah, because I was like, Well, this is very different, and I hope he’s here for the ride. Because I don’t know, I was like, this is all all new, and I’m changing a lot. He’s on for the ride.

Kristen Carder 17:47
This podcast is brought to you by my totally free course on perfectionism. Recent research conducted by Dr Russell Ramsey out of the University of Pennsylvania found that perfectionism is actually the most commonly endorsed thought distortion of adult ADHD. Ers, here’s what that means. Pretty much all of us struggle with perfectionism. Now, you might be thinking, Kristen, I have ADHD, I don’t do anything perfect. There’s no way I can be a perfectionist. But let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you put pressure on yourself to achieve unrealistic expectations. Do you worry that no matter what you do, you’ll never be good enough? Do you struggle to accomplish routine tasks because you’re worried about failing? If so, you’re probably a perfectionist, and I would love for you to take my four part video series course on perfectionism, you can find that at I have adhd.com/perfect you should go check it out. So luckily, he is on board for the ride. Or was what was that transition like? What was it like to go from someone who was constantly people pleasing to someone who was telling the truth, expressing your autonomy. I’m getting hot just thinking about it. So

Adrienne Himelright 19:04
in our marriage, what that was like was very I mean, he said multiple times he’s like, I’m not really sure like, who I’m interacting with. So a lot of times it was, oh, like, you’re more mean than I thought I was. Like, that’s just honest. That’s not mean. Like, that’s just, but I think that was, like, a big wake up call to just like, Oh, you have more opinions than I thought you did or I would. And I he has now learned, but I started to say, like, the things that I say to you, I say to you because you’re my safe person. So like, I feel like I can say all the things to you, and then obviously I’m not going to go out and tell like, our neighbor, you know, right, all my thoughts about this, this topic, or whatever. But I think he I had been holding back so much that he was like. Like, wow, there is a lot going on in your mind that I didn’t know about. So I think that was like him, relearning who I was, me, setting different boundaries in our life, with people and in relationships. And that was very I think that was difficult at first. I think that’s becoming a lot easier. I think the the idea of me has changed, and I think he’s okay with that, which is great. So no, he’s by

Kristen Carder 20:30
that. Do you mean he thought he was marrying the nicest human on the planet, and then he found out that he just married a human, yes,

Adrienne Himelright 20:39
and I think he still thinks I’m nice. I just think he’s like, Oh, okay. Like, you are thinking a lot, a lot of things. I wasn’t letting him in on anything. So I think just him being able to be like, oh, oh, you’ve got an opinion on that. Oh, there’s something different. Oh, you don’t actually agree with me completely on that. That’s different, you know? And then he has to adjust to like, Oh, you have a different opinion. So how do we make this work? It was easier, right? When you’re just like, yeah, sure, that’s great, yeah. So the adjustment of that has been interesting, so

Kristen Carder 21:14
convenient for the people in our lives, when we just say yes to everything, yeah. And when no boundaries, no limits, just say yes, yes, yes, and I agree with you, and you’re that mess, yeah,

Adrienne Himelright 21:25
so easy going. I mean, so for years, like you’re still laid back, you’re so easygoing. And I loved that. I’m like, I really am, yeah, and inside, I was like, this is the word so much anxiety, right? Yeah. Like, this is terrible.

Kristen Carder 21:39
When was the last time somebody called you easygoing? Has it been a minute? It’s been

Adrienne Himelright 21:44
a minute? Yeah,

Kristen Carder 21:47
I feel bad about that. That is so good. Yeah, it’s great. So why do you think that ADHD ers specifically adults with ADHD? Why are we people pleaser people pleasers just mess on the end of that. Why are we people pleasers? I

Adrienne Himelright 22:05
think, I think there’s a couple of reasons. So I think we kind of hit on the rejection sensitivity. Like we just don’t want to be rejected by anyone. And I think the portion of us, like we fall short in so many areas, but we really want to be perfect in relationships. Like, it would be so nice for everyone to love us like that feels like, if we could just perfect this aspect that feels, I think, a little bit more in control, that that would be like, it’s easy, it’s great. I think I don’t know anyone who really loves negative emotions. So I think it’s a really easy way, easy way to avoid negativity. So if you’re just like on everyone else’s part, it’s really hard for you personally, but you make everyone else’s life, quote, unquote easy. And I think also, because there’s a way for with people pleasing you’re really regulating other people’s nervous systems to calm yourself and so Wait, say it again. That was so good. Okay, so people pleasers, it’s a way for us to regulate other people’s nervous system so that we can calm ourselves. So if you are in a dysfunctional family like we were, it’s an easier way to, like, diffuse a hostile situation so that you can feel safe, comforted, calm, which means we usually attract people who have, Like, higher emotional dynamics or are more unhealthy, because we’re really good at calming, calming the room. If there’s conflict, I would step right in. I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s fine, yeah, just relax. You do this. We’re gonna do that. I will. And then. And the reason why I stepped into it is because the discomfort of people fighting was so I could not tolerate it, so I would just put myself really in the danger zone to create peace so that I could be like, Oh, thank God.

Kristen Carder 24:09
How many conflicts have you inserted yourself into that you truly had no business being a part of,

Adrienne Himelright 24:15
especially in college. So think about money. Yeah, I didn’t even live in the dorms, and was like inserted into problem solving, mediating

Kristen Carder 24:25
for everybody, yeah. How much of this do you think relates to the fawn response?

Adrienne Himelright 24:32
Do you think it’s all response? I think it is like a trauma

Kristen Carder 24:37
response, yeah, yeah, for sure. I

Adrienne Himelright 24:40
think that’s a trauma response. So I think it’s a learned response for a coping skill that is tied into the fawning response. I think it’s just like a branch of that and a way that we are self protecting, self soothing, keeping ourselves safe and out of danger, but it is a huge hindrance. Is in adulthood, like, I think as a child, I’m like, Well, of course, do whatever you need to, because the adults in your life aren’t taking care of you, so you have to do whatever you need to do. And that’s respectable. Like that is encouraged, for sure. As an adult, I feel like, as you know better, yeah, it’s like, it’s to your best interest in the people in your lives best interest, to learn different patterns, to learn something different, to heal from what you were through.

Kristen Carder 25:29
So for listeners who might not be familiar with you know trauma, complex trauma, the experience of trauma responses, essentially, what happens is, as a child, when you’re in an unsafe environment, your body naturally goes into these coping mechanisms, fight, flight, freeze or fawn or a combination of them. And that is beautiful. It’s by design. It’s to keep you safe, and it works. I mean, it usually does work. And so fawning sounds like it was your kind of coping mechanism of choice, your trauma response of choice. The difference is, though, like as you transition out of childhood into an environment where you’re not in danger, that’s when we have to begin to override those trauma responses and learn better ways, because you might be emptying a retirement account and putting 1000s of dollars on a credit card to go to destination weddings that you truly want to go to but you just don’t have the money for, and

Adrienne Himelright 26:36
lots of other things and lots of Do

Kristen Carder 26:40
you want to give US other examples? Do you have any other, like, outrageous examples? They’re probably a lot of them are probably just pretty run of the mill,

Adrienne Himelright 26:49
maybe, okay, I mean, like buying things for people that I had no business buying. A lot of it relates to money for you. Yes, that’s interesting. Or not, applying to a college that I wanted to apply to, to like, appease people and tell me about that one. Do you mind? No, that’s fine. So I really wanted to apply to Penn State main campus, but was told by a parent that that like wasn’t maybe at my best interest, and because I came from a smaller school, I should go to a smaller campus first, and all that. And I didn’t have the fight in me too. I was like, whatever. Sure, let’s do that. And I remember, like losing sleep over like not going to school, the school that I wanted to go. I went to the branch campus and then went up to the main which is it ended up being a beautiful decision. That’s where I met Kent and some really incredible people, but that was not like my plan for me, so that was a very different but it was like, well, whatever. I don’t want to fight. I don’t want to cause any chaos in the home. I don’t want to I don’t want you to be upset with me, because our parent would be like, Fine, do whatever you want, but then they would hold it against you and make sure you felt their wrath, you know. And I was like, I don’t have an Emmy. I’m out of here so soon. Like, sure I can do this last yeah thing. So there, I mean, there’s so many things. I mean, went to events that I didn’t have any business being at or want to go to, like, working hours that I should be working, yes, that I should not have been working, like they would for, like, my first job, they different vacations. You’ll have to, if you want a day off, you have to come in and work a double the day before, and I’d be like, Sure, no problem. Like so many things that I’m like, this is not, not what normal people would do. People would just be like, that sounds insane. I won’t do that.

Kristen Carder 28:51
Not me. Yeah, it’s so interesting, because my next question for you is, why should we bother to stop and I think that’s a great setup for it. So can you sell us on like it, if we decide to stop people pleasing, that’s going to be a lot of work. Yeah, it’s going to be hard. Why should I bother? Because

Adrienne Himelright 29:15
it feels so good. It feels so good. That is

Kristen Carder 29:19
a lie. That’s a lie, because it feels terrible, okay,

Adrienne Himelright 29:22
but the freedom that comes with the discomfort is amazing, the freedom to be known for who you actually are, the freedom to be completely honest, the freedom to create your own schedule and feel like your time is your own, the freedom to work in places that you actually want to work in, or work with people that you actually want to work with, or there is so much freedom it is. It is uncomfortable? Yeah, what’s the cost? Okay, so the cost is discomfort. I mean, I would say is, here’s the thing, though, that I. Would even sell you on. The discomfort is that, the discomfort of not being honest and not being not saying no to people, and not being connected with people that you love and not being surrounded by people that you love, that cost is severe. It’s lonely, it’s painful. It is, I mean, it is the worst. It is the worst to be surrounded by people and feel so lonely. It’s the worst to never be known at all. It’s the worst to feel like extremely powerless, like you’ve no options, that you’re just stuck here forever. All that feels the worst. So at least when you’re choosing something that feels freer, there’s a discomfort because it feels almost wrong to start choosing things for yourself. So the wrong, right? The discomfort of being like, oh my gosh, this is really uncomfortable. The discomfort doesn’t mean it’s wrong, yeah, the discomfort just means you’re doing something right. Finally, it’s a different discomfort. I know it’s a different

Kristen Carder 31:06
that’s such a mind boggler, because I think we normally associate discomfort with like, abort mission. I must be doing it wrong. This must be wrong. And especially I’ve talked before in the pod about fear, obligation and guilt, and I think that those three are like the drivers exactly, and when we feel fear or when we feel guilty, I’m being so selfish and our brain starts to attack us. That feels so overwhelming. Yeah, I

Adrienne Himelright 31:45
think it’s really interesting, because one of the things that has been really helpful is I would encourage other people to rest, or I would encourage other people like you should just say no to that, or you should just whatever. But I didn’t allow the same rules to apply to me. So, like, I could never rest. I mean, I cannot believe I didn’t have a seizure in college. I had like, three hours of sleep a night, if that, because I just had to be Go, go, go. And, yeah, so there was no rest. There was no no but I would always be like, you should just tell them no, that you won’t do it. I could cheerlead and rally for other people, but couldn’t live it out in my own life. If they’re like, Yeah, you should say no. I’d be like, Oh my gosh.

Kristen Carder 32:26
I can’t say no. That feels no. I’m just easygoing. I’ll just say Yes,

Adrienne Himelright 32:29
I’m fine. Doesn’t bother me that much. How

Kristen Carder 32:31
many times do you think you’ve said it’s fine in your life? A million times, yeah, it’s

Adrienne Himelright 32:37
fine, it’s fine, it’s fine. Yeah. I started to tell people like it’s not actually fine, or catch myself like it’s fine. I’m like, actually, it’s not fine. It doesn’t feel good. I’m actually upset about it, but I’m gonna do this anyway. I’m choosing to do this anyway. That’s so good, and having the choice feels really nice.

Kristen Carder 32:54
Okay, so you’re saying that your sales pitch is even though it feels uncomfortable, it’s discomfort with a purpose. Yes, is that? Is that what you’re saying

Adrienne Himelright 33:06
and discomfort with like an end game, like people play that positive, yeah, well, people please, and you have to keep up the act over. It’s never ending. It’s never whereas, with you, if you are saying no to someone when you are stopping people pleasing, that’s where it ends, like you say no and it’s over. You are then solely dealing with your own personal discomfort, which I think really eases over time, because you’re like, oh, obviously that no needed to be said. Like, I needed time to do X, Y and Z, so I had to say no, and I wanted to say no, and then I remind myself, like, those are great choice. If you say no to that, you get to do these three other things, and those feel so good, and you want to do these things, and you didn’t even want to do that. Yeah. So there’s like, there’s an end point to that, whereas with people pleasing, it’s just constant, yes, yes anytime they ask something, yes. And you never know. It’s unpredictable. You never know when they’re gonna

Kristen Carder 34:08
ask. You’re at the whim of the other person, and you’re it’s

Adrienne Himelright 34:12
silly, because you’re like annoyed at someone for even asking you the resentment. Oh, you’re so annoyed, you’re so resentful, but you say yes anyway, and they have no idea that you’re annoyed or resentful at them for asking. They’re just like, hey, will you help with this? And you’re like, I would love to and Dad, you’re like, Oh, why did you ask? Did you know I just wanted to lay around

Kristen Carder 34:33
today, you know? So what was the process that you used, or maybe even still use, to self soothe when you’re overwhelmed with the fear, the obligation, the guilt, the I’m so selfish, like the brain attacks of like, because, you know, again, so much of this is a trauma response that we’re now trying to override and be like, no, no, you’re safe now. So What? What? Was your process? Or what can like our listeners use to self soothe that emotion?

Adrienne Himelright 35:07
So some of the things like, especially when I first was saying no, I literally was self grounding. So I would put my feet on the floor, I would hold on to my chair, and I would make myself look left and right, and I would tell myself that this sounds crazy, but I would literally tell myself like, no one is here attacking you, no one is running at you. I know it sounds insane, but sounds it sounds so raw. It I mean, it was just like my nervous system was, like, in a full panic. Yeah. So I literally just had to remind it like, you’re good, you were in a safe space, you’re totally fine. And then I had, like, certain thoughts that I would write down and have readily available. So if I knew I was gonna have a hard conversation with someone, or I knew that I would have to talk to a manager at work and tell them, like, I can’t actually cover that for you, whatever it was, then I would remind myself like the discomfort doesn’t mean that I’ve done anything wrong, right. The discomfort is something normal that every person who’s been in my situation is going to feel like discomfort is a way that I get to grow. If I say no to this, I get to say yes to and then I would remind myself of those different things, huge. And then the other thing, if it was available to me, is I would move my body so I love to be outside. I love to walk. I love to just be in nature. So if I could still feel my body like really activated, I would be like, Okay, let’s go for a walk, and then I would just spend some time outdoors, and that would be a great way for my nervous system to regulate. And then I would the thoughts keep coming back. So especially when you first say no, they keep coming back. So then I would just have to go back to my same like, this Discomfort is normal. You didn’t do anything wrong. This is people say no all the time, very normal, you know, like that. I would the same thing that I would say to my bestie. Is what I was starting to say to me. So good, becoming my own bestie, yeah.

Kristen Carder 37:10
Oh, becoming my own bestie. That is so good. So you have a resource for us to help ADHD or stop people pleasing. Can you walk us through some of the steps, like, how in the world somebody listening who’s like, oh my gosh, this is me start, yeah. Where do I even start? Where are some safe and simple places that people can start to maybe override that people pleasing tendency.

Adrienne Himelright 37:41
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing that I normally try to draw my client’s attention to, and by the time they get to me, they’re usually already at this point, is awareness that they’re people pleasing. And if there are specific like situations or people that they people please with, because those are going to be, like, their major triggers, I would say for them to start people pleasing, yeah? So just awareness that you’re doing it, have that, like, Aha moment of like, okay, I’m willing to see that I’m doing something unhealthy and how much it is affecting me negatively

Kristen Carder 38:17
before they even change anything. Yeah? So

Adrienne Himelright 38:20
literally, just like, Oh, that’s interesting. Get a little curious with like, okay, that’s like, not, not the way I want my life to go. I can tell how powerless I feel. I can tell I feel out of control. Nothing’s going in a direction that I wanted to go. So becoming aware of that. And then I work a lot with my clients on deciding that they’re worth taking care of or worth protecting, because that part comes from, I think, when we’re really little, is the message was, like, you’re not really worth it. My needs are more important. So like, you need to, like, I’m

Kristen Carder 38:56
a parent, the parent would be, whether implicitly or explicitly saying,

Adrienne Himelright 39:02
Yeah, I mean, it’s more important, yeah. Like a friend group can be just like an adult that they spend a ton of time with, or someone that they looked up to that was just like, yeah, that’s you don’t matter. I matter. So the next thing that I work on is, like, the decision of deciding that you’re worth taking care of, which sounds silly to decide it, because I think everyone knows in their head like, of course,

Kristen Carder 39:25
I’m worth thinking logically. Yes,

Adrienne Himelright 39:26
I think the decision comes where you start to take action to prove that to yourself,

Kristen Carder 39:31
like when you I hear so often from people with ADHD, yes, I agree with you logically, or I agree with you in theory, right, but their actions and their their bodies do not agree. So like, Yes, I agree with you in theory that I am worth taking care of, but none of my actions are pointing toward me, prioritizing myself

Adrienne Himelright 39:56
and some of that the decision part is the action. Part, which is small, they’re little actions. And so like, the next thing that I do, that’s part of that deciding, is like, decide to start to be honest with safe people in your life. And people pleasers aren’t usually surrounded by a lot of safe people. So you can

Kristen Carder 40:15
design safe. What does safe mean? Safe means like, they

Adrienne Himelright 40:20
will respect your boundaries, that they’re not going to guilt you when you say no, that they’re not going to manipulate you to change your mind, that they’re not going to like hostile, be hostile towards you or lash out at you for sharing an opinion or disagreeing. I

Kristen Carder 40:38
guess you don’t love me. Then, right? Yes, I don’t want to bet, yeah, we’re done, and Bye, bye. So we’re finished, yeah?

Adrienne Himelright 40:46
So that is like deciding, and I always tell especially with my clients, like, start small, share you don’t want to go to that restaurant. You’d like to go. Can we try something different? I don’t like that place as much right now, yeah? Or, you know, things

Kristen Carder 41:00
that don’t really matter that much like

Adrienne Himelright 41:02
you’re usually ever like normal human beings. That’s just what they do. They just share opinions on their on their things, you know. But for us, it feels every little decision feels like a big step towards honesty, yeah, towards being like, truer to who you are,

Kristen Carder 41:19
danger, yeah,

Adrienne Himelright 41:20
everything feels like I don’t want to

Kristen Carder 41:24
go to there. I do not want to go to this. Please,

Adrienne Himelright 41:27
please go somewhere else. Yeah, you know, I can’t. I can’t work those hours, but I could do this instead, even that, like, the honesty of like, I, I’m unwilling to do that, but I’ll give you an option for something else that’s softer, yes, and that feels easier, usually, for people to do.

Kristen Carder 41:46
I think I just want to insert here that, like testing the waters with people, people who you are hoping and you think might be really safe. It’s a really good BS filter for who is safe in your life and who isn’t. And by safe, I mean, we’re not necessarily talking physically, but just like a healthy enough emotionally healthy enough relationship, yeah, not perfect, sure, you know. But

Adrienne Himelright 42:13
also, and you know, people are allowed to share disappointment, like, oh, that totally stinks. I would have learned for you to come but I get it, sure do your thing. If someone responds like that, I’m like, green flag that feels amazing, authentic, yes, that feels that feels great. The initial disappointment still gives me a pang. You know, you’re still, yeah, you’re like, Oh, you’re sad, yeah, I should take care of you. And instead, you’re like, Yep, I’m taking care of me. I get that you’re disappointed, and I’m so sorry, but I’ll see you the next, next totally. It

Kristen Carder 42:44
makes so much sense that other people are gonna have a response to our to our preferences or to our boundaries, and it’s not always a negative thing, like, you know, when I share something with Greg and he’s either initially disappointed or defensive. That doesn’t mean that he’s toxic, because he’s always going to swing around to like, okay, I get it. He’s human, exactly, yeah, he’s just human, yeah, for sure, human emotions. Being human is too hard, yeah, I know it’s hard, so hard. And then just

Adrienne Himelright 43:14
setting small boundaries with people, which would be like, I’m not able to do that, I could do this instead. Or a big thing was with people pleasing is like people emotionally dumping or venting on you and interrupting your day because you just set no time limits with people, oh my god, like you’re late to things or not getting the things done that you need to because you’re trying to be all in with this other person. So setting time limits with people, like, I’m so glad you called. You know, I can only be on the call for the next 15 minutes, and then I’m gonna have to go, but I’m really happy to talk to you for that amount of time, or while I’m driving, I’ll call you back when I’m driving, right? Because I’m like, right, like, so things like that that are smaller. It’s not like, I can never see you again, right, right, right? Just simple again, simple, normal boundaries that every human

Kristen Carder 44:06
you keep saying normal, and I’m having like, a reaction shot like, it’s not normal. This is, like, superhuman, it’s it’s normal,

Adrienne Himelright 44:13
though, right? Like other healthy,

Kristen Carder 44:15
typical, healthy interactions that

Adrienne Himelright 44:19
other people would just say, like, this is not. This is a normal interaction, yeah. This is healthy to say no to Yeah. And then usually, the last one that I think is the hardest one for people, is noticing the discomfort that you feel. We kind of talked about this, and being able to notice that the discomfort doesn’t mean you’re in the wrong. You are guilty. I think normally people pleasers especially take the emotion as

like attacking our identity or our character. It’s very personal. It’s very, very personal. So just reminding yourself that like that is that’s also very human. In it’s also something that would be expected when you’re doing anything new, is to have discomfort. Anything new is going to feel uncomfortable, and that discomfort is way, 1000 times better than the other discomfort of the powerlessness and just give, give, give, give, give. And having people when you become more honest, having safe people to support you and remind you in that is huge, especially as you recover. It’s like you as small. It doesn’t have to be big, but a small support team who are just like, yep. Oh, that makes so much sense, of course. Validation, yeah, validation. So I used to be so resistant of the concept of, like us needing validation just as humans, which makes sense. That makes sense. But I remember my therapist saying, like, when you want to set these small boundaries and kind of test the waters, first share it with your bestie, or first share it with your sister and say, like, Hey, am I crossing a line here? Like, eventually I’ll be able to do that on my own, which I am now, but I first needed safe enough people, people who I knew loved me and were in my corner to say, like, No, you’re good. You’re not being ridiculous. This is not going too far, or you’re not being selfish. And I think finding one or two people who can, who you can test those on, like, Hey, am I am I crossing a line here? Or am I going too far? Am I being dramatic? Am I asking too am I asking too much? Yeah, not asking for

a lot, right? I’m like, No, you asked for 10 minutes for a lunch. That’s not too much. Yeah, and that part, and I think you’re right, like, the more you practice that, the less you need external validation, the more it just becomes internalized. And you’re like, of course, I need this. Yes, this would be expected. Yes, every person should have this. This isn’t too much. This is just what I would be asking in general.

Kristen Carder 46:59
Yes, okay, so I wanted to talk to to that idea just for a second, because I think what most people don’t realize is that is a healthy developmental process that occurs in childhood, or should occur in childhood, and often does not. And so when we don’t get the validation in childhood of expressing our autonomy and being able to say no and expressing our preferences. Then we, we, you know, evolve into adults who, of course, can’t do that. And then we, we still need to go back and kind of parent that that inner child who’s never had that developmental process completed, and so having you tell me like, no, you’re fine, you’re good, or having Hillary tell me like, No, you’re not being dramatic. That external validation is what then allowed me. I thought I’d become independent on it, but I did it. It’s the opposite. It actually allowed me to evolve into someone who is independent and so like, yeah, people reach out for validation from your your healthy enough relationships, yeah,

Adrienne Himelright 48:04
like decision making as a people pleaser and

Kristen Carder 48:08
an ADHD or combo, forever. Oh my gosh, forever. Worst. So

Adrienne Himelright 48:12
it always be like, what about this? What about this? I don’t know. Maybe this, maybe this. And there’s so much more internal dialog than like, this is a good decision. Yeah, it doesn’t matter. Same. I’m

Kristen Carder 48:21
gonna take care of myself either way. Both are good. So good, yeah. How can people get in touch with you? Reach out to you, work with you, and I know you have a free download for us. So can you share all the things?

Adrienne Himelright 48:35
So you can find me at Adrian himmelright on Instagram, or Adrienne himmleright.com and my website is on there. There’s a freebie on there for you to download, a workbook for you to work through with some light reading and questions

Kristen Carder 48:50
to go through gentle light reading. There’s

Adrienne Himelright 48:53
no depth to it, right? And then, yeah, you can contact me through there for coaching as well. That’s

Kristen Carder 48:59
awesome. We’ll link all of that in the show notes. You did not get blessed with a super easy name to spell first or last, so we’re gonna link all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. I love you. I’m really glad that you were my first guest in studio. Yeah. 

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