Kristen Carder 0:05
Music. Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast, where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults. With ADHD, I’m your host, Kristen Carter and I have ADHD, let’s chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting, relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Kristin Carter, and you have tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. Today, we’re having a conversation that is near and dear to my heart. We’re going to talk about autism and ADHD, which is the combination diagnosis of autism and ADHD. With me, I have a very special guest, Dr Robert nashef. He has a distinct voice as a psychologist and father of an adult son with autism. He’s spoken around the country and trained professionals internationally in treating autism and other developmental disorders and supporting families. He has a special interest in the psychology of men and fatherhood. He gave a TEDx talk, which we’re going to link in the show notes I just watched it. It’s beautiful. The TEDx talk is entitled how autism teaches us about being human. Dr naseef is also a member of the panel of professional advisors of the Autism Society of America. He serves as the Leadership Council at Drexel autism Institute. It’s amazing. I’m going to link his website in the show notes, which is Dr Robert nasif.com and I want to share that I have a very I have a very personal reason why I want Dr naseef here. I’ve actually interacted with him. He’s had a big influence on my own family, on my extended family on my friend group. It’s been a wonderful thing for me and my circle of influence to have his authority on autism and ADHD in my life. So I’m so grateful, Robert, thanks so much for being here. My pleasure. So glad to have you. So glad to finally meet you in person. And I just first want to say thank you so much for the influence that you’ve had in my life on the people that I love. It’s just been, it’s been really important and impactful, and I appreciate that.

Dr. Robert Naseef 2:36
It always warms my heart to just to hear that and know I’ve made a difference in someone’s life.

Kristen Carder 2:43
Yeah, it’s amazing. Tell us how you got into this work. I know it’s very personal to you. So would you share some of your story with us?

Dr. Robert Naseef 2:53
Sure, sure. So my oldest child, my son, Tariq, had started talking, but he stopped talking around 18 months of age, and he started like sort of tantruming and pacing and flapping. And it took until he was five years old for him to be diagnosed with autism. That was the earliest you could get a diagnosis in those days, and the incidence of autism was like less than one in 10,000 so nobody I knew had a child with autism. I had a master’s degree in education. I’d never heard of it. Those were dark days. I wound up being the main caretaker for my son for a period of time. And I guess, and I wrote books about this and blogs about this, and the short The short story is that I tried so hard to change him, to fix him, and in the end, he changed me. He helped me become the father I needed to be, the partner, I needed to be the friend, I needed to be a better version of myself, a much better version of myself still in progress. What’s really important, though, there’s a grief that parents go through when your child’s not the child you expected, and that’s when you need support, because our children, and we could talk about any diagnosis here and all children, not just children with special needs or neurodivergent need happy, energetic parents, but parents need a place to talk about how they feel and to process their disappointments. To readjust their expectations. I think that’s all part of the pro the parenting process, and we need other parents to process that with, and professionals to process that with. We have to be energetic and and focus on what our children can do, and focus on their intense interests and passions. That’s what they need from us. That’s really key. And we need support. And so that’s why a lot of my career has been providing support for parents, and it continues to be and if you want to really read something good about this, it’s called Don’t mourn for us. Don’t mourn for us. If you Google those words, you’ll find an essay by an autistic self advocate who talks about parents needing to grieve by themselves and to join with their autistic child who’s waiting for them. Oh, it’s beautiful. Jim Sinclair, don’t mourn for us. I’ll send you that link.

Kristen Carder 6:19
We’re gonna put so many good links in the show notes. I know you have some YouTube videos for us and some other articles too, so I’m really looking forward to that. So listener, head to those show notes, baby. We got good stuff for you there. So my audience is ADHD, but there is a lot of overlap between autism and ADHD, obviously, and I thought that a really fun place to start would be to ask you for some distinguishers, what are some differences? What are the major differences between autism and ADHD?

Dr. Robert Naseef 6:57
So the reason people start to ask the question because I usually get people who’ve already been diagnosed with ADHD, teens or adults. The reason they ask the question is ad ADHD doesn’t seem to explain everything to them, like there are social problems that come up with ADHD. I’m sure you’re aware, but they’re a little different. Yeah, so a person with ADHD might be interrupting a lot, might be changing the subject a lot, that sort of thing, but a person with autism is going to be hyper focused on their favorite subject, and maybe always changing the conversation back to their favorite subject. So so that’s one of the differences. And then when you have both of these things going on in the same brain, there’s like a tug of war of whether I, you know, interrupt, or whether I don’t interrupt, or, you know, how do I just, what do I do now? I don’t want to talk about this, or I want to talk about something else. Is that? Okay? All that’s going on in the brain and different for different individuals. You know, there’s no way to just totally generalize this, but the person who also has autism or one of the differences is, if they’re seeking a lot of similarity, they’re seeking repetition. There may be and people with ADHD are fidgeting. People with autism might be fidgeting more might be more obvious. It might be harder to mask it or camouflage it. The person who also is autistic has trouble reading the social cues, like, when is my turn to talk? When is my turn to listen and reading in between the lines of where the conversation’s going, like all that’s very autism makes all that very difficult. For many people with autism, there needs to be very clear explanations and context like, what what’s going on here? I need you to tell me, and I need you to tell me, sort of like, what I need to be doing, thinking, talking about because I don’t get it naturally, yep,

Kristen Carder 9:33
and I appreciate you saying that part, because I think not everyone, but a lot of people with ADHD don’t mind, like flying by the seat of their pants and being, you know that expression of just like being very spontaneous and figuring out as we go along, like I feel like one of my superpowers, if we’re gonna use that word, I. Someone with ADHD is like, I don’t mind just figuring it out as I go along. I don’t mind not having the whole context. I don’t mind just being kind of like going in blind, because I know that I’m great in crisis, and I’m great at just kind of like faking my way through it, whereas what I hear you saying is someone who’s autistic wants to know way more information up front before entering

Dr. Robert Naseef 10:29
absolutely might not be able to enjoy Hey, let’s go out to lunch. Yeah, might need to know let’s go out to lunch on Friday and where we’re gonna go

Kristen Carder 10:41
and what’s the menu, and where’s the parking and, like all of that, all of

Dr. Robert Naseef 10:46
that, especially the menu, because there has to be foods that fit the palette, yeah. And, and needing to know in advance, oh, there’s things I can order there, yeah? Because if there’s not things I can order, we need another restaurant.

Kristen Carder 11:04
Yeah, so I love this, because I’ve never thought it through in this way. A big distinguishing factor is the spontaneity.

Dr. Robert Naseef 11:13
Oh, it’s huge. And it’s also in some of the screening instruments we use, it’s asked both ways, like I enjoy being spontaneous, or I need to plan carefully and explicitly. And some people can do both, but a lot of people can’t. People with ADHD can often have more fun, be more energetic, and, you know, just go with the flow, or even make the flow. Whereas, you know, autism tends to, you know, put the brakes on that by itself. But imagine having both of those going in your brain.

Kristen Carder 11:55
Yeah, so that feels like is audhd, like a kind of a walking contradiction? Is that kind of what it feels like for people who are diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, where there’s just like this contradictory thoughts constantly. People

Dr. Robert Naseef 12:17
tell me it’s like sort of having somebody in each year, yeah, and that makes sense to me, but to what degree varies, and on what issues vary? Sure, you know, there’s a lot there, you know, and also people learn over time, and when people sort of get the odd DHD diagnosis, then they also can learn to manage the contradictions better. They know it’s coming. They don’t feel like crazed by it. And you know, there’s sort of another level of acceptance, of like, okay, this is how my brain works. This is how I’m wired. I’m not defective. I’m different in these ways, and I can deal with it. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 13:08
I mean, diagnosis is just, can be so, so empowering. I have this. This is a weird question, but it’s kind of stuck with me. I’ve seen on social and I’m so sorry. I mean, you’re like a true expert, and I am bringing you something that I saw on Tik Tok, so I apologize for that, but also a lot

Dr. Robert Naseef 13:30
of great stuff on there’s a lot of

Kristen Carder 13:32
great stuff on Tik Tok, and I saw someone say people who are not autistic aren’t researching whether or not they’re autistic. Oh,

Dr. Robert Naseef 13:44
that’s great. I always like, Oh my gosh. Like, why would you read about it? You know? Except you’re wondering, right?

Kristen Carder 13:52
And, and, um, isn’t it such? I’m gonna

Dr. Robert Naseef 13:55
use that. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Now, if they overdo it, that could be another problem, because they might be, you know, so intent on belonging to this group that they’re over identifying. You know, when someone comes to me, they’ve definitely been thinking about it. They may have been researching it um, but if they endorse every single aspect, then I become a little circumspect, sure, like, do they just want to belong to this club? Is this? How real is this? Are they overstating it? But that’s relatively rare. Actually, it happens, but it’s relatively rare.

Kristen Carder 14:46
Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make a list, you cross things off the list in order, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, we know what to do. But ADHD is not a disorder of not. Knowing what to do. It’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That’s why I created focused. It’s an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I’m a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019 I’ve coached over 4000 adults with ADHD from all over the world, I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from Hot Mess express to grounded and thriving. I’ll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior and accept yourself flaws and all. And with this foundation, we’ll build the skills to improve your life with ADHD, and not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you’re surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr Ned Hallowell says healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you’re an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused go to I have adhd.com/focused to learn more. That’s I have adhd.com/focused to check it out. It really hit home for me, because I love a lot of people with ADHD, and some of them have this, like you said earlier, I feel like it’s not the whole picture. This, like thought process where they’re like, I just feel like there’s more happening. And a lot of them, you know, kind of dive into autism research, like researching autism and the symptoms and the characteristics, and that really hit home. Like somebody who’s not autistic isn’t going to spend all this time researching, looking into it, because it’s like people, people who they just don’t think about it. They just go about their life. There’s going about their business, right? If you’re not, yeah, I just I that really resonated for me. So speaking of that type of research, what is your thought process on self diagnosis?

Dr. Robert Naseef 17:25
It it works for a lot of people. It doesn’t help you get the supports you need or the accommodations you need all the time. Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of people do self identify. They’re pretty sure of it, and then I meet them because they want it to be official, even if they don’t need accommodations. They want to know, did I get is this really me, if I go through this process, will I understand myself better? Can I embrace it more? Or it can really work for individuals? You know? I mean, it’s not something you could use to justify an accommodation, although, because of stigma. Once somebody is diagnosed, people such as myself might say you don’t have to necessarily disclose autism. You should disclose your problems paying attention. You should disclose your sensory problems about light and sound, and most employers will accept that if you want to be and this is going to be controversial in today’s world, if you want to be hired in a program that’s promoting diversity, you would need an official diagnosis. And those programs haven’t all gone away, right? A lot of companies and universities still have them and are committed to them,

Kristen Carder 19:13
yep, yep, yep, yeah. So it seems that I’m just so grateful for the research and the access to information and even Tiktok, places like Tiktok, Instagram where, where creators, like autistic creators, ADHD creators, can make content that people resonate with and can see themselves in and say, oh, wait a Second, that sounds like me, and then kind of go on the research down the research rabbit hole. And I do see, even with ADHD, that a huge benefit to self identifying, to saying like this sounds like me. I think, I really think that this is something that that describes my. Experience.

Dr. Robert Naseef 20:01
Oh, absolutely, because then and then you could learn the hacks or the coping techniques to help you.

Kristen Carder 20:09
Yeah, and a lot of self acceptance then can be applied as well. It’s

Dr. Robert Naseef 20:14
really big. Acceptance is really the key to just having a life worth living, I think. And it’s a moving target. It’s day to day, like, like, I’m getting lost on the way here, I had to, like, take a few breaths and just say, Okay, I can’t get a signal in the hills of mania.

Kristen Carder 20:37
Oh my gosh. I love that you shared that. Because what that tells me is, no matter what age you are, no matter what stage of life, whether you’re neurodivergent or not, self acceptance is a lifelong process.

Dr. Robert Naseef 20:52
Sure, it’s a moving target, what’s going on day to day, moment to moment that we might not like. It’s not about liking it. It’s about, how do I live with what’s happening right now in a in a reasonably balanced, regulated way? Yeah,

Kristen Carder 21:11
I’ve never heard it described as a moving target, and I think that’s a perfect description. A

Dr. Robert Naseef 21:15
mom of a kid with autism gave me the idea because she said it’s like the elephant at the circus bouncing on a ball. Yeah? That’s what her life’s like, what she’s accepting day by day. Yes, and that’s what gave me that idea, yeah, that it’s not static. It’s a dynamic process, yeah,

Kristen Carder 21:37
for all of us, yes for everyone. Yeah. Okay, so let’s just chat for a minute about the primary traits of autism. I think that would be just really helpful for the listener. Sure, what are, what are the the primary traits, maybe some like, you know, things that you screen for, what? What do you look out for in someone when you’re going through that diagnostic process. So

Dr. Robert Naseef 22:04
if you think about other disabilities, if you think about things like dyslexia, trouble decoding words, dyscalculia, trouble doing arithmetic and mathematics, autism is, in a sense, a social learning difference. So difficulty making friends, keeping friends, difficulty reading social cues. It’s the big part of this is in the social realm. And there’s sort of three domains. Then there’s repetitive activities. Historically, this was looked at as a big deficit, but in in neurodiverse, affirming language and perspective. We view the interests as possible, talents, passions, enthusiasms, and they can portend success in different areas of life, but they can also be, like, very narrow, but also they So, for example, a child flapping their arms like really little children do this when they’re excited, but if they’re doing it at five, six and seven, they’re starting to stand out from from their peers. Yeah. And it’s this inability or difficulty, let’s say, of connecting with their same age peers of of a similar developmental level. That’s what we’re looking for, difficulty relating to peers of the same developmental level. So if we’re talking about children, children with autism do better relating to younger children and to adults. And why is that? Because their same age peers expect them to be like them, and they’re not. But they like children, they want connection and adults find them interesting. So yes. So, you know, we look for things like this, and they and it’s a stereotype that autistic children, teens, adults, want to be isolated. They want connection, but they have difficulty maintaining it, sometimes even initiating it. Yes, so those are the things we’re looking at. We’re looking at the passions or the repetitive activities, but even like the flapping arms or pacing is self reg. Regulating, like you started out by saying, you know, I’m medicated, I’m regulated. A year. Let’s go, well, like a lot of what’s considered these weird and they were called stereotypies, are self regulating. They have a function. And then finally, the sensory differences, which also exist in with ADHD, but with autism, they they can really trigger very intense anxiety and withdrawal from situations. They can make social interaction more difficult. So I think it comes through a little differently, but, but both diagnoses have the some of that, and some people have more. I mean, some people are would be wearing tinted lenses in this room. Some people can’t go out without can’t step into the daylight without sunglasses or tinted lenses. So those are the main things, social interaction, intense interests and sensory differences. Now it might be important to note that prior to 2012 when DSM five was adopted, ADHD was just considered a part of autism, and a person should not get a separate diagnosis. Once DSM five came out, then practitioners were supposed to give both diagnoses if both applied,

Kristen Carder 26:46
I do not know this

Dr. Robert Naseef 26:49
now, well over half of people with autism also have ADHD.

Kristen Carder 26:56
Do you? Off the top of your head, have a percentage for the number of people with ADHD who are also autistic?

Dr. Robert Naseef 27:06
No, I’m not sure anybody does, but I think that group is growing pretty rapidly. One reason it’s growing pretty rapidly is social media, the influencers and others talking about it, writing about it. There’s some odd DHD psychologists, like the one I follow is

neurodivergent insights with Dr Neff, she’s great. I read her blogs all the time, Devin price and others, but those are two, two of the autistic and ADHD psychologists I follow. That’s

Kristen Carder 27:56
great. So you mentioned that in children and teens, you when, when you’re looking at their social skills, they will often gravitate to people younger than them, like littler kids or adults. Can you describe for us, what the social experience of an adult with autism might be like, like, who are they? Who are they? Kind of gravitating toward

Dr. Robert Naseef 28:29
people have the same interests as they do, yeah, and they’ll even sometimes say it’s like, parallel play. Mm, hmm, right, which is a level of play skills? And there’s a a young a young teen I just recently evaluated, and she her dad did not see this, but her mom did. She at recess time she’s on the swings with a friend, and they’re both just swinging, and they’re on the outside of the playground. They’re not in any of the groups. They’re just both swinging. They’re enjoying each other’s company while they’re both swinging. So the parallel play of that, that enjoyment of connection, but different from their same age peers, who are playing tag, they’re, you know, playing basketball. Girls are having group conversations if they’re not playing sports, you know, etc. If you’ve

Kristen Carder 29:44
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I will be going to buy a bathrobe shortly and enjoy. Don’t forget, Mother’s Day is coming up. So use code I have ADHD for 40% off. So as an adult with autism, an autistic adult is going to be wanting to connect with people who are interested in what they’re interested in, and they’re going to want to do side by side type activity,

Dr. Robert Naseef 35:36
yes, or things like role playing, games, Dungeons and Dragons, other electronic role playing games, and that’s also a route to making a friend outside of the game. Yeah, like I asked, this was a young adult I evaluated several years ago. His parents were really worried, because he was just playing video games a lot. And when I talked to him, I asked him, were they one person shooter games? Were they multiplayer games? And he said, Oh, they’re multiplayer games like and I said, he said, I have friends. We talk all the time. I said, What do you talk about? And he told me, we talk about everything going on in our life, plus the game we’re playing, yeah, and it turned out over time, because I saw him over time a couple of those friends and he got together and went to a like A tournament, or of that game that they all played, yeah, and they, you know, they rented a room in the hotel, and, you know, they spent a weekend hanging out at this tournament, right? I think that multiplayer games and role playing games can also be a route to a deeper connection than the game itself. And

Kristen Carder 37:04
so neurotypical parents, or parents who are not autistic, need to chill a lot. Yeah, like, just chill, just like your kids do that, because they are finding connection in their own way,

Dr. Robert Naseef 37:20
exactly they often are, yeah, if and if they’re not, whatever they’re passionate about is a route to that. So a boy who’s playing Legos all the time, there is Lego therapy. There are Lego clubs where they’re building things together, and that’s what engineers do. They work in groups to build things.

Kristen Carder 37:50
So it’s like notice special interests and encourage special interests, rather than dismissing or Can’t we talk about something else? Isn’t there something else that you can do with your time?

Dr. Robert Naseef 38:04
Yeah, that’s a non starter. Yeah, that comes across as criticism 100. And then then you have a child or a teen or even a grown up that’s just been rejected over and over and over again, and no accident, that over 80% of autistic adults also suffer clinical levels of depression and that and higher rates of suicide. So these passions special interests really are key to intellectual development and social development as well.

Kristen Carder 38:45
Fascinating. That’s such a staggering and heartbreaking statistic that you just shared the higher rates of clinical depression, the higher rates of suicide. What do you think can be done about that? I’m

Dr. Robert Naseef 39:00
pausing, yeah, okay, I like it the most. I think important thing for all humans when you feel bad is to feel seen and heard. And too often in mental health, we we have our sort of preferred theoretical constructs and treatment strategies, but what makes any of that work is your client or patient feeling really seen and heard. And if you can do that, you can apply whatever you know about helping with depression or anxiety. The rates of anxiety are also astronomical as well, and some experts say autism is like anxiety looking for targets and. Just like anything can create anxiety. What do I do about this? And what do I do about that? When’s it my turn to talk? I don’t want to make a mistake, and you’ve been corrected so many times. You’re on edge about that.

Kristen Carder 40:13
If somebody has a friend who’s autistic or a partner, would you say the same thing that like being seen and heard? Absolutely.

Dr. Robert Naseef 40:24
Yeah, that’s the starting point, not changing people, not fixing people. In our father support group, which is now in it’s like sixth year out of the Drexel Autism Clinic, we start every meeting by saying we’re not here to fix each other. We’re here to listen and provide support, and you may meet people here who and and we can exchange resources online and whatever, but we are here to for you to share and be seen and be heard. Yeah, and that’s healing. Like people want to feel connected, yes, whether they’re parents, whether they’re autistic children or adults or teens, people want to feel seen and heard. That’s and that’s humanistic psychology. Carl Rogers said, If I accept myself, then I can change. Oh,

Kristen Carder 41:25
it’s so good. I so appreciate this. And I think that there can be this assumption, and you already mentioned it earlier, that you know an autistic person prefers to be isolated, doesn’t want connection, and I don’t think that’s true at all.

Dr. Robert Naseef 41:43
What is true that gets misinterpreted is that autistic people need more alone, time to recharge, to decompress, than neurotypical people, yeah. So that’s often misinterpreted as preferring aloneness or being lonely. It’s not that it’s needing that time, and everybody needs some of that, sure. I mean, that’s the thing. And everybody masks some things. There’s no such thing as a person who doesn’t camouflage anything, but people with a diagnosis that may be stigmatizing, yes, they’re camouflaging more. They don’t want to stand out. That’s human, but that also has a price and and when people understand themselves and can be more comfortable, they’ll frequently camouflage less and be more authentically themselves.

Kristen Carder 42:43
Yeah, so that’s a great segue into just a brief conversation around masking, because I know that’s such an integral part of the autistic experience is is this feeling like you have to present in a certain way, and for good reason, because society and families and, you know, doctors, psychologists, all of us have been asking them to show up in a certain way. And us, ADHD ers feel this to a certain extent as well. You know, you’ve, you’ve worked extensively in this field for years. Can you describe what you feel like? Is the the masking experience of an autistic person?

Dr. Robert Naseef 43:30
I think it’s really impossible to live and just say and do every thing that comes into our mind, every impulse. You know there’s a movie with Jim Carrey called Liar Liar. And you know the movie, and it’s worth watching because he He lies to his son over and over again when he’s going to visit his son because he’s divorced, and he finally decides to tell the truth, but then he’s telling the truth about everything, and it’s outrageous and it’s comedy, but it makes a point. There’s a lot of truth in it that, like, once he stops lying, he’s totally inappropriate and nobody wants to be near him. So, so autistic people aren’t like Jim Carrey in the movie, but, but everybody’s a little like that. Like, what do we share? What do we keep to ourselves? And like, when do we share and how much do we share? So, so you’re asking me questions, and I’m sharing some personal and some professional insights. I’m not sharing, you know, some of the things I would share with my partner, yeah, I’m not sharing. Some of the things I would say to my daughters, yeah, yep, not doing that. I’m sharing at a level of our conversation,

Kristen Carder 45:12
yeah, and that’s masking to a certain extent, absolutely,

Dr. Robert Naseef 45:15
yeah. I mean, if it wasn’t, you would have stopped the interview. You know, like your listeners wouldn’t want to hear about Yeah, what I said that made my daughter mad at me? Yeah?

Kristen Carder 45:28
Well, I mean, they might, they might. Let’s talk about that my daughters

Dr. Robert Naseef 45:33
wouldn’t want to hear on YouTube talking about them.

Kristen Carder 45:38
Yeah. So what you’re, what I hear you saying is, yeah, autistic people mask, so does everybody else,

Dr. Robert Naseef 45:48
but the degree of it is way more intense, okay, and more it takes a lot more out of the person.

Kristen Carder 45:59
I think that’s the key point too. It’s like the emotional, physical toll

Dr. Robert Naseef 46:07
that it takes. It takes a huge toll. Yeah, there’s an instrument I use in evaluation when, when people are talking about how difficult it is for them, it’s a camouflaging quotient, and it it compares how much masking an autistic, how much masking a person’s doing, compared to a general sample of the population, and compared to a sample of people diagnosed with autism. Interesting. And and there’s like 20 questions, I think, and it when people look at the results, they can see the ways in which they mask, and if you look at the ways in which you mask, you might be able to let go of some of them and be more comfortable, so that that can be useful in terms of, after a diagnosis, people learning about themselves, either through therapy with a therapist who’s skilled in this, or just learning on their own. Yeah, yeah, learning from really the autistic people who are writing about their experience like one of the best books about it is called pretending to be normal by Leanne holiday Wiley, who was diagnosed after her son was diagnosed. Oh, wow. And I’ve had several moms like that who came to me after they had a child diagnosed, actually one who came to me recently she identified with her son. She thought she might be autistic, but she turned out not to be autistic, but to be an ADH, dear. Oh, wow. Who had some similar characteristics to her son, but she did not have the social characteristics?

Kristen Carder 48:07
Yes. So for someone who is thinking, My gosh, I relate to some of this and I wonder, and they’re kind of doing the deep dive on social media and the Googles and all the things, can you give some encouragement to like, is it worth pursuing a diagnosis? I

Dr. Robert Naseef 48:30
think it’s worth it. But of course, I make a living doing that.

Kristen Carder 48:35
You might be approaching with a little bias. Okay? Noted,

Dr. Robert Naseef 48:39
yeah, that’s true, but it depends how much it’s bothering you. Some people self identify and it’s not bothering that’s

Kristen Carder 48:46
great. That’s a great word, right there, yeah, so

Dr. Robert Naseef 48:49
you don’t need to do it. Or some people, it’s not bothering them, it’s bothering their spouse. Well, maybe you should look into that, because it may or not be true, and if it’s not true, you probably need counseling as a couple, or you need to understand your spouse better. You might need some help. It might not be autism, but you need to listen to that. Yeah. Um, you can’t just deny the feedback you’re getting and think you’re okay. But if, if you’re bothered internally, then it can be liberating in the way we were talking about earlier, because then you just know, this is me. It’s the way my brain works, and you can accept that, and you can flourish with that using the skills that come with it. So what are the skills that come with it? Is the brain in autism is wired for. Logic. It’s not wired for intuition. It’s not intuition doesn’t just flow but but people with autism can learn a lot about social interaction from observation and from logic, and even I’ve done social skills training with young autistic adults for an autism at Work program and in a group, they could point out each other’s social faux pas, and they could give each other really good feedback that they wouldn’t get on their own, and they can learn from the feedback of their peers.

Kristen Carder 50:49
Taking care of your health isn’t always easy, especially for those of us with ADHD, we struggle to cook, we struggle to remember to eat. We struggle to plan meals. The executive function involved is just off the charts. But AG, one makes it so much more simple. That’s why, for the last several years, I’m talking two years, I’ve been drinking AG, one every day, pretty much, no exceptions, which is saying a lot for me. That is saying a lot for Kristin Carter, who is generally pretty inconsistent, especially with eating healthy. But it’s just one scoop mixed in water once a day, every day, and it makes me feel so much better. I wake up, I head straight to the cabinet. It takes me like 60 to 90 seconds. My kids watch me do it, because it’s like first thing in the morning, and they watch me in my robe with my messy top knot. I’m just, like, scooping the Ag one. They turn up their nose, and I just say, like, listen, it might look gross to you, but it is so easy. It’s such an easy way to support my health. So I’m not, not gonna do it. I’ve got to let you know that I have had other wellness companies reach out to me and ask me to try their products and ask me to be a sponsor. And I just don’t like anything as much as I like ag one. I’m just not gonna do anybody else. So this is like the most genuine sponsorship ever. Each serving of ag one delivers my dose of vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics and more. It’s a powerful habit, and it’s powerfully simple, which is why I’m able to do it every day. You might be wondering like, how do you know for sure that AG, one is a quality product, and that matters a lot to me, because if I’m going to do something, if I’m going to make the effort, you better believe I’m going to make sure that it’s worthwhile, but I know that with ag one, I’m giving my body high quality nutrition. Every batch of ag one goes through a rigorous testing process so that you know it’s safe and the ingredients are sourced for absorption, potency and nutrition density. So if there’s one product I had to recommend to elevate your health, it would be ag one, 100% and not the other products. If people have tried to send me, literally, they send me products. I’m just like, it’s just not ag one. That’s why I partnered with them for so long. So if you want to take ownership of your health, start with ag one. Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamin d3, k2, and five free. AG, one travel packs with your first purchase exclusively at drink. AG, one.com/i have ADHD. That’s drink. AG, one.com/i have ADHD. Go check it out. I totally love what you’re saying about it being liberating if you’re struggling internally, a diagnosis might feel liberating or clarity on No, it’s not autism, but it’s this thing over here, or here are some supports for counseling. You know, that kind of a thing, what I always say to my listeners, when, when we’re talking about, like, should I bother be diagnosed with ADHD is like, if you feel like there’s something happening, like, follow that thread, if there’s something going on, if there’s turmoil, if the if, if you don’t feel like you’re functioning at a level that that that you want to or that you could with the right support, with the right understanding, with the right feedback, with the right help, and if you are feeling misunderstood, I wonder if that’s a common experience of an autistic person, like feeling just like I don’t feel Like anybody really gets me, than the validation of like, having someone like you who’s been doing this for decades, and being able to say, like, No, you are completely normal for an autistic person. And like, here are all the things that you can feel really good about and feel validated about, absolutely yeah. What is usually like, the reception of the diagnosis, if you want to talk about like parents with with kids or mothers

Dr. Robert Naseef 55:10
have done a lot of in most cases, the the just lion’s share of the heavy lifting and getting support, getting accommodations in school, going to doctors and so on. And while pretty much no one wants their kid to have different diagnoses, moms seem to be able to accept this a lot quicker for men, like, there’s a couple problems like, and I could speak for myself, I’ve never seen a problem I didn’t want to fix. And the male mind goes to like, how do we get rid of this problem? And also goes to like a narcissistic wound is like, Not My Kid, no, my kids, no, not my kid. Takes it more personal, less relational, so men take longer to accept the difference in their child or in themselves. If that’s the case, it’s also hard for women, but women more naturally, get support and share and men hold it in so for women, but for women, it’s socially unacceptable to be angry. For men, it’s socially unacceptable to be nervous or sad, so men are holding it in, and women are more able to share and find support from if they’re diagnosed themselves, from other women, or if it’s their child from other moms, so that’s a really important difference that gets played out in families. So when so one reason I’m passionate about helping fathers to open up about this is that’s a huge benefit to their families. And we even know, research wise, that the mental health of mothers improves when fathers are more engaged with their children who have autism or other developmental differences. Wow. So that’s a reason this works, really important, because people say, Well, why don’t you have mothers groups? Well, I have had that, but the reason to have fathers groups is fathers don’t seek this out, yeah, with each other. So

Kristen Carder 57:52
there’s, like, no shortage of mothers groups, if we’re being honest.

Dr. Robert Naseef 57:56
Oh, absolutely. There’s many more opportunities, like,

Kristen Carder 58:01
you’re allowed to do the work with fathers. I love that. Would you give us a really brief synopsis of the three levels of autism? I feel like we should talk about that a little bit. I I think that it’s important to say that, obviously it’s a spectrum. Obviously there are varying degrees of support needs, but the support needs determine what level of autism the person is diagnosed with. And I’m going to make the assumption that the people that you and I are probably talking to who are ADHD or autistic listening to this podcast are likely level one. Would that be? Would that be a fair?

Dr. Robert Naseef 58:54
That’s fair, okay? They’re likely level one or and some are level two,

Kristen Carder 58:58
okay? And level one is what we used to call Asperger’s. That’s right, okay, and that would be lower support needs.

Dr. Robert Naseef 59:06
I have a lot to say about this. So, yeah, level one would be considered low support needs. It used to be called Asperger syndrome, which is people that have fluent language in average or above intelligence. So that being said, even though somebody might be need relatively low support needs. Those needs might be really crucial. So for example, I have a friend and colleague who needs like, an hour or two a week of executive functioning help or she can’t function. Yes, yeah. Yeah, so if she doesn’t have that, she can’t get anything done, or gets very little done. So level two, and I’ll just go through the levels, then I’m going to come back and say it’s all a problem, that all levels are a problem. Level two is more substantial, needs substantial support. So this might be, if you think of a school setting, this is a kid with an IEP so that there’s goals. They’re measurable, the school’s accountable to deliver the service. And really, I think virtually every kid diagnosed with autism should have an IEP. The school should be accountable, whereas the 504 plans don’t have that accountability. And then level three is extensive support, which is usually one to one instruction, one to one support, all the time. So all that being said, I think levels are a problem. I think each individual, and I’ve written a few pieces on this, I can send you the link. That’d be great, that we’re in autism spectrum news. I think I wrote three sort of op eds on this, yeah. What it comes down to is, everybody needs the supports they need, whether they’re mild, moderate or severe, like the three levels, yeah, even the person with the low support needs. If they don’t get what they need, they’re suffering, they’re not functioning, yes. So it has to be really individualized, and when we just give levels, that’s not what’s happening. So that’s why I’m against the profound autism level, because even that is a stereotype and it but individuals that have more needs need extensive services, but which ones do they need? So my son has extensive needs. He needs around the clock care. He’s needed that since he was nine years old, and he still needs it, but he’s gotten what he needs. He’s happy almost all the time, and he’s certainly autistic 100% of the time, yes. And obviously, so Right, right that anyone would know, yeah? So I think it has to be really specifically tailored to each individual. Yeah. And just because someone is non speaking doesn’t mean they have the same needs as someone who, who maybe is non speaking and has intellectual disability, right? So it’s the whole person that has to be considered that’s the problem. Now, why does some parents, particularly of of kids with level three or so called profound autism, feel excluded. They feel excluded because they don’t feel the self advocates who can speak about autism are representing them. So we need to have clearer voices who endeavor to represent the whole spectrum. But myself, I found individuals, self advocates, speaking very articulately for the whole spectrum and advocating for the whole spectrum, the autism Self Advocacy Network advocates for all individuals with disabilities, not just autism. So I think there’s some misconceptions, and there’s some parents feeling left out, and they need to be embraced. Yeah, everyone needs to be embraced in this, and that’s my view. Quite simply,

Kristen Carder 1:04:08
I love to see you get fired up about it, because I just love to see people get fired up about what they’re passionate about and what what I was hearing you say and correct me if I’m wrong. But what I was hearing you say is, like, just because someone is labeled as, let’s say, autism level one, and they have quote, unquote lower support needs, doesn’t mean that the support that they need is optional. It doesn’t mean that, like, oh well, you have low support needs. So like, deal with it, pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of a thing. It’s like, No, this is, this is vital. This is so important. And if, if a if they don’t have the support that they need, then they will not be able to thrive. They will not be able to function.

Dr. Robert Naseef 1:04:58
Absolutely. Yeah. So. So if you eliminate all dei programs, right? That’s cruel, right? Because there are a lot of people who can do very productive work given the opportunity, yeah,

Kristen Carder 1:05:14
yeah, given this the correct support, absolutely, yeah, it’s amazing. Whoo, okay, let’s, let’s end with this. If someone is listening and they’re discovering my goodness, like this, this is me. I really feel like it is and they’re, maybe they pursue a diagnosis. Maybe they’re, they’re diagnosed with ADHD autism. What are, what are the supports out there for them? What are the resources that they will be able to kind of lean on, like, what are some compassionate first steps that they could take? So

Dr. Robert Naseef 1:05:55
I think the Autism Society of America is a great starting point, and I’m on one of their boards. So again, you know, what can I say? But I think it’s a good starting point. And one of the reasons I think it’s good is that we have a panel of autistic advisors who advise the organization, who have voices with in whatever the organization’s doing. The Autism Self Advocacy Network is extremely active on all autism and other related disabilities. For women, the autistic women and non binary network is fabulous. People find great stuff on Tik Tok and YouTube, right, and like all over social media. I mean, I’m totally for it. And and then within, I think we mentioned it earlier, but neuro divergent insights, nor divergent insights. Yes, is a great website and blog, as well as Devon prices blog, which is on the medium. And

Kristen Carder 1:07:16
tell us a little bit about the work that you do. Well,

Dr. Robert Naseef 1:07:19
at this point in my career, a lot of the work I do is adolescent and adult diagnosis, and that also tends to be half or more girls and women, wow, who are coming to this later, because it’s been internalized so much. So I do that, and my work with fathers is, is very important. We just had the second annual Philadelphia autism fathers conference. Last Saturday, we had over 100 fathers and male caregivers. Was an amazing event. And the next event next year will be in Wilmington, Delaware, to draw from an even bigger geographical area. So those are the things I’m involved in. Yeah, at this point, that’s wonderful for your father’s groups. Do any of them meet virtually? Or are they all in person? They meet virtually? All of them do, yeah, yeah. So the group that’s Philadelphia based, we have people from Canada. Oh, cool. Ohio, Illinois. I mean, we’re mostly in the tri state area, sure, but people can join from anywhere. And there’s another group that I facilitate. I do the the local one with Dr Michael Hannon, and I do another one by myself that’s out of Bakersfield, California and and the current Autism Network out there.

Kristen Carder 1:08:52
Is there anything else that you wanted to make sure to say today, anything else on your mind that you do you feel like we missed anything? Just,

Dr. Robert Naseef 1:08:59
thank you for this opportunity to have a voice to your audience. Just having a voice on these issues really makes life worthwhile. For me, that’s

Kristen Carder 1:09:13
wonderful. What a place to end again. I want to sandwich this episode by saying to you, thank you. Thank you for the impact that you’ve had on my family, my extended family, my friends. You know, we’re not going to disclose anything, but you’ve diagnosed some people that I love very, very much, and it’s made a profound impact in my life and their life. And yeah, the work that you do is so important. I so appreciate it.

Dr. Robert Naseef 1:09:42
Very happy to hear that, and you’re quite welcome. Thanks for being here. My pleasure again.

Kristen Carder 1:09:52
If you’re being treated for your ADHD, but you still don’t feel like you’re reaching your potential, you’ve got to join focus. It’s my monthly. Coaching membership, where I teach you how to tame your wild thoughts and create the life that you’ve always wanted, no matter what season of life you’re in or where you are in the world. Focus is for you. All. Materials and call recordings are stored in the site for you to access at your convenience. Go to Ihaveadhd.com/focused for all the info you.