Kristen Carder 0:05
Chris, welcome to the I have ADHD podcast, where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults. With ADHD, I’m your host, Kristen Carter and I have ADHD, let’s chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting, relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Kristin Carter, and you’ve tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated, and I’m ready to roll. I’m ready to party. That’s what I’m ready to do. We’re gonna party today. I am so looking forward to this conversation. If you tuned in, last week we had a discussion about pathological demand avoidance, or PDA, in children, and this week we are talking about what that might look like in adults. And I’ve got to tell you, I get asked questions about PDA in adults constantly in focused my ADHD coaching program, and I really think that this is something that is so important for us to learn and talk about. So I am thrilled today to welcome back. Casey Ehrlich from at peace, parents, it’s so exciting. And with her, she brought a colleague. And my goodness, get ready. Let me tell you a little bit about Kendall. Kendall damashek is a parent coach and the director of content and curriculum for at peace parents, a neurodiversity affirming organization that provides education to support others in understanding and supporting PDA children and teens around the world. Kendall is also a PDA autistic mother raising four PDA humans under the age of 10. Yes, that’s true. My goodness, that’s not nothing, it’s not nothing. That’s quite that is quite the thing. I’m so glad that you’re here with us. Kendall, I know you’re going to add a nuance and a lens to this conversation that would otherwise just not be available to
Kendahl Damashek 2:17
us. So thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Kristen Carder 2:21
So excited. Okay, let’s get started right off the bat with, like, what might PDA look like in adults? Yeah,
Speaker 1 2:30
so it can look a lot of different ways. And I think it’s important to think about it from like the root cause of PDA, right? Because even in the name, if we think about like pathological demand avoidance, we’re going to think about like procrastination or not wanting to do things, which is one aspect for some people, but it’s not the only part of PDA. But if we think about it as like a nervous system disability, where threats to autonomy and threats to equality are building activation in our nervous systems, then you know how that presents is going to be varied. So I mean, it can look like it can look like procrastination. It can also look like like lack of access to basic needs. It can look like not being able to go to the bathroom when you’re in public spaces. It can look like never really being able to keep up with your dental hygiene. It can look like taking big risks, you know, which I’m sure is something that like overlaps with ADHD, right? And, yeah, I mean Casey, you probably have bird’s eye views on lots of patterns too with PDA adults.
Casey Ehrlich 4:07
So I think it might be helpful to talk about like, the five characteristics. Yeah, maybe you can give us anecdotes and we can share anecdotes. Let’s do that. So we talked last week about the survival drive for autonomy that overrides other survival instincts. So I think this is something that you know internally, like you’d have to decide, is that what’s activating my nervous system because someone’s putting themselves above me, or because I don’t have freedom and choice? Like, is that why my nervous system is going off? Right? Equalizing, which is the behavioral response to perceiving that there isn’t autonomy and equality, which can be towards others being above others, or controlling of others, or critical of others, or towards self. That’s the second.
Kristen Carder 4:58
Can you just pause there and tell me? Me What? What do you mean towards self?
Casey Ehrlich 5:02
So let’s take an easy example of like a PDA child might be told to put their shoes away, and they comply, and then they go destroy their mom’s like plant, but an internalized PDA or might harm oneself, destroy one’s own things, or have internal self loathing,
Kendahl Damashek 5:24
yeah? So, like, even, like, a personal example. So when I was little, I would, instead of, like, having a tantrum, I would, like, go into my room and bite my arm really hard, yeah, right. Or, like, instead of taking it out on a sibling, I would take it on myself, and even when I’ve gotten back into burnout states in adulthood, that happens,
Kristen Carder 5:48
you know? Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for that explanation. Yeah. So that was number two, equalizing, yeah, the third, the third
Casey Ehrlich 5:56
would be masking. So the way I think of PDA masking as slightly distinct from autistic masking, which is the imitation of neurotypical norms and a somewhat learned behavior. I’m introducing a binary here, but for PDA, it’s like whatever the brain perceives as the most safe response based on the environment, that’s what the nervous system pathway is going to be. So instead of a fight flight, like at home or with a safe person, like a partner, yeah, it might be, I’m going to go into freeze fun or shut down, yes? So you don’t see the threat response, yeah.
Kendahl Damashek 6:39
And you might see that a lot in like, Okay, well, I can’t be PDA as an adult, because I’m able to go to work, right? But then maybe you get home and you’re yelling at your kids, or you’re controlling of how your spouse is cleaning the kitchen, or and and so it comes out in these equalizing behaviors at home, because home is your safe space, but out in the world, you are masking, and it’s not, it’s really like an automatic, autonomic thing, like when we think about autistic masking, it’s like, you know, I’ve heard people talk about it as, like manual, like a man, like, everything is manual, like you’re thinking about, How does someone do this thing? And therefore I will do it that way, because that’s the way it’s done, whereas this is really like the nervous system taking over and being like you’re going to behave in this way that’s going to keep you
Kristen Carder 7:35
safe, unconscious, automatic, fascinating.
Casey Ehrlich 7:41
The fourth would be, and you, I know you have some anecdotes for this, that undivided need for undivided attention. So that is actually like you’re trying to get signals of safety from another nervous system, because your baseline is one of threat.
Kristen Carder 8:00
Yeah, I’m, like, getting really uncomfortable. And
Casey Ehrlich 8:03
hot also overlaps with body doubling and ADHD, so I’d love for Kendall to Yeah. So,
Kendahl Damashek 8:09
like, Okay, here’s a recent anecdote. So earlier this year, Casey and I were presenting in Ireland, and Casey was presenting virtually, and I was presenting in person, and I was super excited to go. It’s something I wanted to do. And I could immediately feel like, just like vibration in my body and like tenseness. But it wasn’t about the opportunity. It was like I was going to be going alone, right? And I, I wanted to be able to explore Dublin, like, it’s such a cool place. It was such an amazing opportunity to be able to go. It was literally the first time, I think I’d been away from my kids since my first was born. You know, it was, like, a big time. It was, it was time. But I was like, I want to be able to take advantage of it, right? And I just could see myself going and doing the presentation, but like having all of my nervous system energy towards that presentation, and then only being able to stay in the hotel. And so I invited my dad to come, and like, I had just turned 40, and I needed my dad to come to my work trip with me. You know, like, doesn’t feel very professional or mature, but I am a professional. I am a competent adult. But, like, because I had this, this lens of, I need someone to signal safety to me. And you know, it’s very particular who I chose, like I needed somebody who wasn’t going to have expectations around me or my time or my energy. And my dad is great at that. And. And so, you know, we went and and it was great, and it allowed me to explore the city. That’s awesome. Yeah, yeah.
Kristen Carder 10:10
So the fact that I bring an emotional support person on every work trip,
Kendahl Damashek 10:16
I can understand it,
Kristen Carder 10:19
including, like, where I’m going to Kansas City in November, and my coach is coming with me, because she’s that’s normal, right?
Kendahl Damashek 10:29
Yeah, well, it’s normal for me, normal
Kristen Carder 10:30
for this table, for this table, for sure. That was number four, I believe. Yeah. Okay, where are you now?
Casey Ehrlich 10:38
And I would love if we can to circle back to the basic needs thing, because I think that is a big one, yeah. But the fifth would be the fluctuating and cumulative nature of the nervous system activation. So this is why we see like fairly on the surface, like typical functioning, and then sudden burnout, where there’s like, incapacitation and impact on basic needs in a way that’s more like, do I need to see a doctor or therapist? Yeah. And then, you know, having to monitor that threshold, like a diabetic would insulin levels of like, am I getting close to where I’m tipping past my threshold.
Kendahl Damashek 11:21
Yeah, yeah. Like, so just like, on that note, when I was in my mid 20s, my husband and I were living, he was in grad school. We were living in Northern California, and we were newly married, and had decided we wanted to try and have kids, and I’m also narcoleptic, so I know I got it all going on so, but I I had been on medication, on stimulants to keep me awake during a work day, sure, but you can’t be on stimulants when you’re trying to get pregnant, at least not the not the medication that I was On. It wasn’t just stimulants too. There’s other intensive narcolepsy medications, so I had to get off of everything. And by this point, I had been in the workforce post college for about three years, so I had three years of accumulated nervous system stress, and things have been getting progressively harder and harder and harder. So when that coincided with me getting off of medication, it meant that I actually couldn’t work because I didn’t have like the awake, the alertness and the awakeness during the day to like, work at a job, because I would just have fallen asleep at my desk. So my husband was in graduate school, and I was essentially like, just by default, a housewife, right? And like my husband and I, we do not ascribe to traditional gender role views of things like that. No problem, either way, it’s just like, that’s not been part of our narrative. But like, you know, it makes sense if he’s at school, sure, all day, you know, and in the lab and running experiments and writing and and researching, and I’m at home with zero other responsibilities, like, I should be able to clean the kitchen up from breakfast should, right? And I spent a year on the couch. Yes, I literally could do nothing. I watched like multiple times. I watched How I Met Your Mother from episode one to the last. I watched the office from episode one to the last. At
Kristen Carder 13:37
least you’re making good choices.
Kendahl Damashek 13:41
Yeah, those are,they are great shows. And I and I would, I remember, like, thinking to myself, like, Okay, well, after this, I will get off the couch and I will clean the kitchen. And we were living in a really small apartment, you know, like it was like a junior one bedroom, you know. And like, all the mess and the chaos was around me, but I literally couldn’t move. I couldn’t walk out the door. I couldn’t make any healthy moves like go for a walk. I couldn’t go to the grocery store by myself. I literally couldn’t do anything but sit on that couch, and I didn’t have a framework for them, right? So like, I felt very ashamed, yes, because I had all the time to do all the things that we needed to do, and I couldn’t do any of them. And it was, it was so rough, right? And here I am, like someone who is intelligent, capable, you know, my executive functioning is actually great, like, I can map everything out. It’s the doing. Yes, that is the issue, right? I know how it should be done and how it can get done. So it’s like, I could see all of this, and then I just couldn’t. So. Uh, you know, luckily, like that year, gave me time to actually rest and use things for regulation and bring down that nervous system activation. I wasn’t working, you know, had the privilege of being supported, you know, by a family member who had some understanding of what was going on. Yeah, beautiful. And I mean, that gave my me time for my nervous system to reset so I could actually be like a functional human again. Wow. Okay, that’s really, really helpful. That’s really, really helpful.
Kristen Carder 15:46
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I’m gonna try to not do this every time do it. Girl, do it, but it’s just like everything you say, I’m like, same, like, I’ve been through that season, like, yeah, burned out after wedding planning and graduating from college, and not just wedding planning, but like, wedding planning and a toxic family system that was also, like, had no money, so like, and probably lots of expectations, just like, very, very, very difficult, yeah, and then I spent a year on the couch. But for me, it was because this was probably 10 or 15 years before yours. It was Live with Regis and Kelly, and then the Tony Danza show, which was only just that one year, but I get to watch every single day, and then the view. And then by the time the news came on at 12, I was like, I think I can get in the shower now, and I would take a shower and then go back to the couch.
Kendahl Damashek 16:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that sounds like a very familiar experience to me, you know. Just attribute
Kristen Carder 16:52
that to like, ADHD and just like overwhelm and some trauma stuff. And like, see here you talk about it in the context of PDA. I’m like, wow.
Kendahl Damashek 17:01
Well, and I feel like, you know, a lot of things can contribute to the same symptoms, right? Like, there’s a lot of overlap in all of these categories as to, like, what things look like. And so, you know, one of the things that personally, I like to think through is like, what lens is helpful for me, right? So it’s like, if thinking, and sometimes that’s multiple, right? Like, it might be that thinking through a trauma lens is really helpful and helps you, like, work through some of the stuff that is keeping you on that couch, right? And it also can be helpful to look through a PDA lens and think like is it also this accumulation of threats to autonomy and equality that are keeping me on the couch? And if that’s true, how can I accommodate myself through that lens? And does that help me?
Kristen Carder 18:09
Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make a list, you cross things off the list in order, blah, blah, blah, like, yeah, we know what to do, but ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That’s why I created focused. It’s an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I’m a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019 I’ve coached over 4000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from Hot Mess express to grounded and thriving. I’ll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior and accept yourself, flaws and all, and with this foundation, we’ll build the skills to improve your life with ADHD. And not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you’re surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr Ned Halliwell says healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you’re an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real blasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused go to I have adhd.com/focused to learn more. That’s I have adhd.com/focused, to check it out. What you just like, opened my mind to something that I think is so important, especially as like, we consider neurodivergence and all of the different people listening. It’s like, okay, if you’re in on that metaphorical couch or literal couch. Out, yeah, what’s available to you? What lens is available to you, right? Like, can we look through the autism lens? Can we look through the ADHD lens? Can we look through the PDF? Like, experimenting within the different lenses and just figuring out, like, what’s going to be most supportive and helpful? It doesn’t actually matter. Yeah, what is like, Right? Which one is more helpful and supportive and and helps you to be who you want to be,
Kendahl Damashek 20:24
yes, and, and one of the things too, that I think is particular to PDA is that sometimes the PDA Well, often I find the PDA lens has to come first if PDA is at play, okay, because I would sit on that couch and I would know what I needed to do, and I would set a timer, you know, I would use, like, ADHD strategies, right? I would set a timer for myself. Like, okay, when the timer goes off, that’s when I’m gonna get up and, you know what? I’ll set a second timer. Or I’m gonna write out a list, and I’m gonna have that, you know, I’m just gonna go through the checklist, or, you know what, I’m going to figure out what’s the easiest way for me to accomplish these tasks. Or I’m going to plan out the function, you know, like, how am I, how am I going to do this the night before or the week before? Or can I set up systems? Or, can I, you know, can I go on Etsy and download somebody’s, you know, like, monthly housekeeping planner?
Kristen Carder 21:18
Have we done?
Kendahl Damashek 21:21
All right, right? And so it’s like it wasn’t that that lens wasn’t accessible to me, or that I wasn’t using it from a pragmatic perspective, but I couldn’t do it.
Casey Ehrlich 21:35
Yeah. Can I please chime in? Yeah. So I believe that I’ve been in autistic burnout before, and I think what helped me was very different than what I see helps PDA burnout, and this is also where I think you can get tripped up. So for me, it was like I need to sleep a lot, but then I need to go to yoga. I need fresh air. I need movement. I need to cook healthy, like it didn’t have as much to do with, like, not being able to access things. And more, like, I’m gonna do all these healthy things instead of just working all the time with sensory overwhelm. Yeah. Okay, and and so, like, when we think about autistic burnout, especially for our kids, like sometimes it’s counterintuitive through a PDA lens, because it’s like, well, fresh air should help, and healthy food should help, and getting off screens and movement, and our kids actually can’t do
Kristen Carder 22:35
it. That’s the kids nervous system. Yeah. Like every healthy thing that you say they’re just like, activated.
Kendahl Damashek 22:42
I feel it in my body right now. Yeah, no, right. It’s literally a physiological
Kristen Carder 22:50
reaction. Yes, okay. That makes so
Casey Ehrlich 22:52
unlike I would like, like, put in a nice podcast and clean, yeah, it would be. Because what I think I would get a lot of my activation around is like achievement, working productivity, staying with a linear plan, not deviating, sensory overwhelm, and so I could still be very active. I wasn’t on a couch and burnout. I slept a lot, yeah, but it was more like nourishing my body, and it was much more active than what I see, like my kids burnouts have been. I don’t know if you agree with Yeah.
Kristen Carder 23:30
Contrast, yeah, just as someone just observing the two, that’s a very helpful contrast,
Kendahl Damashek 23:37
yeah. And I really think it does break down along those lines, like I, I could do all the research from the couch about the things that would quote, unquote, help me, right? Yeah, and I couldn’t access any of them, right? And, you know, that’s always that’s also always been a thing that’s been difficult for me with, like, traditional therapies, even though I think therapy is a wonderful thing, and I’ve had really excellent therapists in my life. But like, when there’s like, a practical suggestion of how to like, achieve Betterment one way or another, right, immediately my brain goes, well, I will never, you know, like and like. I don’t want to feel that way, like, like, I’ll go order the book. I’ll order, you know, like, I’ll, yes, you know, get the membership. But whatever it is, like, I’ll do, I’ll do the first step sometimes, but then it just collects dust.
Kristen Carder 24:33
Yes, would you I know we still have one more aspect of it that you want to speak to, right? Because there
Casey Ehrlich 24:40
were six. So sometimes we separate out the survival drive for autonomy and the what it looks like in basic needs.
Kristen Carder 24:46
Oh, okay, so, but just before we get there, how what was supportive for you in that like couch time?
Casey Ehrlich 24:57
Yeah? So, couch time? Yeah.
Kendahl Damashek 25:00
Yeah, in catch time. You know, having no expectations. I wasn’t working okay? I was financially supported. And, you know, I have a very, very accommodating husband, and very grateful for him, where he didn’t get upset when he came home and nothing was done, he would just, like, open the windows for me and, like, because I literally couldn’t get off the couch to open the windows that we had no air conditioning in Northern California, and it would get, like, it would get like, 8090, degrees in the house, and I was stuck on the couch. I couldn’t get up and lift up the
Casey Ehrlich 25:36
windows. Your body wouldn’t let you. My body wouldn’t let the body wouldn’t let you.
Kendahl Damashek 25:40
Exactly, yeah. And I think that’s a really important distinction, because it’s not Yes, I was physically capable, like I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t, I wasn’t paralyzed. I knew how to walk, right? You know, you had muscles. You know how to open the window, yes. And my body would not let me go and do and I would literally sit on the couch for like, hours just being like, it’s too hot in here, like, I need to open a window.
Kristen Carder 26:06
God, the compassion, you know. Yeah, sweetie
Kendahl Damashek 26:11
and and like, yeah. So I think framing it as my body wouldn’t let me is, it’s really important, yeah. So lowering so it’s lowering expectations, lowering demands. Yes, lowering demands. And then I, you know, while we were trying to get pregnant, and while I’m basically in this burnout, like I just knew that I needed something alive in the apartment with me, right? I needed another, like, looking back on it now, I would frame it as, like another nervous system to co regulate me, right? But, like, back then it was just like I need a dog, you know, just not like I want a dog. No, I have to have a dog. I wrote we had the sweetest landlord. I wrote her a letter that was like, let me list you the reasons why I need a dog, because she didn’t allow dogs in the apartment. But she was super sweet. She finally allowed us. And I remember it was like, we, you know, my husband and I went and we visited family, and while we were visiting. Like, all I was doing was, like, looking through the adoption pages of like, different dogs. And like, we could do this one. We could do this one the day we got back after we had gotten her, yes, literally, got off the plane in San Francisco, drove to Palo Alto, did not drive home, drove to the SPCA, yep, found a dog and brought her home. Yeah,
Kristen Carder 27:41
it was like, this is happening. It is happening.
Kendahl Damashek 27:45
It was a survival need for me. He was out of the home all day, right? And I couldn’t move. But I needed something that signaled safety, yeah? And so we got Josie, our little maltipoo, you know? And she was amazing, and and immediately that started to help me, and then I could take her for a walk, right? Because I had a nervous system with me to literally walk from the couch to the door down the stairs to the sidewalk. Yeah?
Kristen Carder 28:12
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, awesome. Okay, so let’s circle back to needs. Do you want to talk about that? Who wants to take that?
Kendahl Damashek 28:21
You want to, like, set it up and then I can give me, yeah, I love that. Okay,
Casey Ehrlich 28:26
so I think I’m not speaking from like, a PDA adult, being me, but we do work with a lot of PDA adults, so we do see a lot of, like, moms, for example, who, like, were had eating disorders, right and and the traditional approaches didn’t really help. And when we introduced this idea of, like, cumulative nervous system stress control coalesces around eating, it has nothing to do with body image. And it’s like all these, like, light bulbs are going off of like, oh, this is an outcome of nervous system stress, and this is why it appeared at this point in my life, even though I didn’t have body image issues or other things like non 24 hour Sleep Cycle, like insomnia or periods when they were in high school where, like, they would stay up all night, equalizing, like controlling, exerting control, and then they would, like, have trouble accessing high school the next, like, just
Kendahl Damashek 29:33
staying up all night, was the equalizing, yes, yeah. Safety.
Casey Ehrlich 29:39
We see a lot of like, suicidal or unaliving ideation, self harm patterns that they might have had for for toileting. You know, I we’ve worked with parents who have adult children and so, like one pattern was. Was a very intelligent, very capable woman who had gone through college and everything would void in the shower, and the mom, like, didn’t understand it. Like, how can she do this when the toilets right there? Or we might see end caprices or UTIs. And with hygiene. So often the parent, because we work with parents, but often they have viewed some of their medical issues as separate from like constantly perceiving threat sure and going through these burnouts, or behaving in ways where they’re like, I didn’t even make that conscious choice to say or do that, it just happened, and it’s like they start to connect the dots. So I think, you know, not just thinking about behavior, but also how it’s impacting their basic needs, or, like, leaving the house. You know, I know you’ve talked about also education, like, your educational journey wasn’t linear.
Kendahl Damashek 31:11
No, was not linear. Yeah. I mean, I’ve had so, like, you know, with both basic needs and, like, my educational journey. So, like, basic needs, like I, you know, so for me, the basic need that got most affected was toileting. So I stopped being able to, you know, urinate in anywhere where there was anybody else. And, like, I would fly across the country and literally be holding it for 14 hours. Super painful I would. And this is the thing too. It’s like, it’s not that you don’t want to it’s not a motivated choice, right? Like, I would go into the bathroom, I would sit down, I would sit there and try and end up sobbing because I was in pain and I like, your body wouldn’t let you what? My body wouldn’t let me. I actually had a therapist explain it to me, because eventually I went to therapy for it before I ever had a PDA lens. But she would say, like, your body’s not letting you, like your body is not relaxing enough to release. Like, your body has to be released. You can’t push it right. So your body has to be relaxed. You can’t push it so, so, yeah, so, like, it’s, it’s definitely affected my basic needs, and that was, like, a decade, yeah, at least a decade of my life that it was like that for and I’ve also had sleep affected, you know, I was, I mean, I’m narcoleptic, and I would still push through and stay awake, you know, till three o’clock in the morning and then get up for school the next day. And, yeah, wow. I remember, like, I was on this really heavy duty medication for for narcolepsy when I was in college, and it was supposed to, like, take you through all of the sleep cycles and but it would like, make you fall asleep. But that was a threat to my autonomy, and so I would
Kristen Carder 33:23
just dare you make me positive medication that I am putting in my body exactly.
Kendahl Damashek 33:27
I wanted to get better rest. I wanted to be more awake, and then I would take the medication, and I would literally do everything that I could to stay awake and not like planning it, but just like, Oh, I think I need to. Oh, why don’t I? Oh, why don’t, you know, I would get up unconscious and automatic, unconscious, automatic, I remember, like waking up in weird places in my apartment, like, because I would fall asleep. I would literally go to the point where my body would make me fall asleep. I there was no letting myself fall asleep. And then that’s just how it happened. And yeah, and with with school too, like I was, you know, took me eight years to get my my bachelor’s degree. I didn’t apply to college when I was a senior in high school, you know, and
Casey Ehrlich 34:25
Kendall is a genius, so that’s clear, like, I work with Kendall, and she’s brilliant, so it’s not a matter
Kristen Carder 34:33
of intelligence, yeah, or capacity, yeah?
Kendahl Damashek 34:36
Well, it was very confusing for everybody around me, because I been identified as gifted, very young age, and I was supposed to be so smart should achieve great things
Kristen Carder 34:48
exactly, you’re the hope
Kendahl Damashek 34:50
Exactly, right? And then it was like my mom, you know? My parents were actually really great about accommodating me with. Is also why I don’t think I reached burnouts until later in life. But you know, like everybody else around me was applying to colleges, and my mom was like, if you want to apply to college, you’ll do it. That was it. That was the entire college prep talk from my mother, right? So I didn’t apply to college. And then I was like, actually, I think college would be more fun than, like, no offense to Trader Joe’s, but working at Trader Joe’s, you know? And like, arranging flowers, yeah, you know. So, so then I did apply, but again, it was like, I didn’t have a safe nervous system there it was far away from home. I, you know, the deadlines in college were horrible for me, right? And so I came home, went to Beauty School, and officially, a beauty school dropout, you know, went through all of these. I love that for you. I had like only 200 hours left, but it was just like, only, well, you have to do like 1200 so I was percentage, but then, you know, it just, it was too much. My most successful time in academics was when I was at a community college, because it was small and like I would literally go to my professors offices to do my homework, so smart, and I had a lot of I had a lot of accommodation in that type of environment, being bright, and therefore being, quote, unquote, like above, right? Not that I saw myself. It wasn’t like a better than it’s just my position, like when I was taking organic chemistry, I was tutoring it at the same time. And so therefore I was the authority. Yes, it’s so good between me and my peers around organic chemistry. And I don’t know, like, how my professors, like intuited that, but it was really helpful for me, and allowed me to get through that and then transfer, and then I had lots of other, you know, so it was lots of like, you know, when I went then to, like, a more prestigious liberal arts college, then all of a sudden, I didn’t have that built in accommodation, and everyone was not only really intelligent, but Super high achieving, right? Like, everybody’s on fellowships and scholarships and
Kristen Carder 37:44
and they want to one up. You, oh, yes, but yeah, that’s the part of the culture, if I understand it correctly, right? Is it’s like,
Kendahl Damashek 37:51
totally, and I’m not a competitive person. Actually, I’m very, very not competitive, yeah, but it’s not regulating to my nervous system to not be Yeah, like, at least equal to Sure, right? Sure. And when I, when I transferred, I immediately went into another burnout. I took two medical leaves at school. It took me four years to get through those last two years, you know, so just Yeah, and I, and I got to the point there, too, where I was in another burnout, where I even was losing access to, like, my vocal muscles and like, like, I’m a singer. I was a music major, like, I was really interested in psychology and neuroscience, and I took a lot of classes in that, but I was a music major and did like vocal performance and composition, and I stopped being able to sing at all, yeah. So, like, it’s, you know, I think this ties into basic needs, because it’s really like your physiology changes when you are under that much nervous system activation all the time.
Kristen Carder 39:05
Would you mind sharing your story of how you came to understand PDA for yourself?
Kendahl Damashek 39:09
Yeah. Um, so you know, I have four children who I now know are PDA, but initially I just knew that life was really hard for us, like beyond what having four kids close in age should be. And I read everything. So I had, like, stacks of parenting books, and I had, I was doing everything by the book and and things were getting worse and worse and worse and worse, yes. And, you know, I have one child who is, he’s like our canary in the coal mine, right? Like he’s our most externalized presentation of PDA, and he was physically aggressive, right? It was something that like had to be addressed. Had to figure out what was going on. And I had been asking ever since he was born, like, is he autistic? Is he like, what’s going on? You know, I cannot soothe this kid. I remember like, you know, just like having this total meltdown in the kitchen one time, just being like, Will I ever be able to do the dishes again, or, or am I just gonna hold this child for the rest of my life? Yeah? Yeah,
Kristen Carder 40:29
I threw a sippy cup at the wall once over that exact
Kendahl Damashek 40:34
I, yeah, yes, I was, I’m glad
Casey Ehrlich 40:38
you didn’t if you weren’t holding your child, I
Kendahl Damashek 40:42
remember I created, like, a whole system where I was like, if he’s right. I took a laundry basket. He was like, four months old. I mean, he just wouldn’t even nap without my body there, right? He was four months old. I put, no, yeah, I think four months old. I put a laundry basket next to me. I filled it with the coziest blankets and towels made this whole wonderful nest, and I literally, like, stuck my foot in it so he could be next to me, yes, and he still wouldn’t stop crying unless I was holding him. And I remember, like, yeah, just like, What? What? What do I need to do? So, you know, we’d been having issues for a long time, but didn’t know what was going on. And because he is social and makes eye contact, I was always told, nah, yeah, like that. You know what? Like? Take a parenting class, exactly. Take a parenting class. You’re an overreactive mother, by the way. I’d read everything that they were suggesting. Yeah, I was doing everything they had suggested already before they told me to do it consistently, consistently. Yes, yeah, sorry, consistently. And wow, it was, you know, so I started looking for atypical presentations of autism on social media. That’s kind of what my first thing was, because I was like, well, this kid is neurodivergent, and I didn’t know that term. Then all I knew was like, maybe he’s autistic. I was like, something is not typical. I don’t know what it is I need to stop the violence and the chaos in my house. You know, like, my older two are boys, and I always thought like, oh, they’ll share a room, but I couldn’t have them share a room because they would take, like, the little like I had a little potty in their room, because, like, you know, he was as you do, right, as you do so that in the middle of the night, like, we didn’t have accidents, and, like, as they were getting supposedly getting sleepy, they would literally take the the inner thing and toss it across the room, urine all over the place, right? And I was like, this, is this? Is this? Boys will be boys. Like, is that what this is? Yeah, it’s
Kristen Carder 43:03
not, right. It’s not but, yeah,
Kendahl Damashek 43:04
but I didn’t know. So anyway, eventually I was like, Okay, I’ll look up these, you know, atypical autism, present presentations and symptoms, and then that fit better. And then just searching that on the internet led me to PDA, and it was actually with Casey. Was the first time that I had heard Wow, PD. It wasn’t the first time I’d heard PDA spoken about, but it was the first time that I’d heard about it through a nervous system lens, and it was the first time that somebody had laid out these five characteristics that we’re talking about, and that framed it for me. And it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, oh, not only him, but also my older son, and not only him, but me. Is that like for you? It was relieving, you know, like, you know, I was supposed to be this really high achieving person. And I remember my dad always recounts this story where I was, like, I turned to him and I said, I think I’m just going to disappoint everyone. I’m just going to be a mom. I know I’m supposed to do other things too, but I think this is what I can do, and I’m just going to have to disappoint everyone. And then all of a sudden, I had a framework that was, and by the way, like not to say that being a mom is a disappointing choice, right? Like I value it. I value having been a stay at home mom. It gave me purpose, and was something that, like, you know, the needs that my children. Had felt important to me, and therefore I had autonomy and choosing to meet them, rather than like a deadline that didn’t feel important to me, but like having this framework all of a sudden, like I didn’t have to feel like a disappointment to other people, like I had validation and I had acceptance. Yes, you know, so good.
Kristen Carder 45:24
Oh, thank you for sharing, like, the personal stuff. Yeah, I really do appreciate. Course, really do. I would love to Casey get your feedback here, and then if I could, like, if you would share some anecdotal evidence of this. Kendall, one of the things that comes up for my clients a lot and myself, is this feeling of I don’t want to create a schedule, or I don’t want to make a plan, because I don’t want to be told what to do, even by me. Yeah, I don’t even want to listen to me, even when it’s something that I am deciding on my own, that I know is values based that is important to me, that I want to do. I literally taught a time management class yesterday, and focused, and we’re chugging along, chugging along great interactive class. And then we get to the point of, like, actually putting things on the calendar. And there was the so much resistance, and it was like, I don’t want to see this demand. Essentially, these words weren’t spoken. But it was essentially, I don’t want to see this demand on my calendar, even if I’m the one putting it there. And that, to me, is like, this is, this is extra, like, there’s ADHD, which is like, you know, like you’re distracted and you are maybe inconsistent and you’re impulsive and you have executive function, but like this piece is different, where you’re like, I don’t even want to see that effing thing on my schedule, because it I perceive it as a demand. Yeah, even if it’s a demand from me, I don’t want to see it. What the heck is that?
Casey Ehrlich 47:22
Well, I think it’s the internal demands or the internal loss of autonomy. So it’s like you have two parts of your brain. You have the rational part, which is like, I want to have structure, and I want to make plans, and I am running a business and coaching families and all of that. And then if you have a PDA tendency, you have the subconscious part that’s like, I didn’t consent to that, and now I’m gonna react to it, but I
Kristen Carder 47:51
isn’t consent you. Isn’t the consent found in like, you deciding that you want
Kendahl Damashek 47:57
it at that moment,
Casey Ehrlich 47:58
yeah, in the moment. This is why we can make Kendall. That’s so important. Yeah, excellent point. So with kids, for example, like this is sometimes why things like collaborative problem solving doesn’t work, especially when they’re in burnout, because, like, they can agree on something when and talk about it and understand it, and want to be on board with you when they are regulated, but in the moment they’re presented with what their subconscious brain perceives as threatening, they’re no longer in that rational part of their brain, yeah. So it’s like they’re just going into the reptilian part, and it’s like, no,
Kendahl Damashek 48:35
yep. So
Casey Ehrlich 48:39
I think that happens more frequently and more quickly when there is a build up in the system. So, like, you know, rather than thinking about what’s the solution in the moment for that one thing, it’s like, okay, I have my life right, and what are all the ways that I can lower demands, give myself autonomy, make me feel above, like Kendall, I’m just gonna you tell it. No, go for it. So Kendall sent me a picture last night of her hotel, and she’s like, I got the room that’s the highest, like one of the highest rooms, so that I have a sense of being above to get me back to a place of safety,
Kendahl Damashek 49:23
yeah, brilliant, but I wouldn’t have done that, yeah, it’s accommodating, right? I was like, yeah, it’s gonna cost me an extra 50 bucks, but, like, I have to do it because I can’t think of myself below. Like, it’s not a small hotel, right? Like there are layers of people,
Kristen Carder 49:45
hundreds of people, on top of me. Yeah, this
Kendahl Damashek 49:47
is not okay. This is not okay. It felt like suffocating, like I’m gonna die if a bunch of people are on top of me, but if I’m on top I can breathe.
Kristen Carder 49:56
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Casey Ehrlich 52:20
that’s like, a very adaptive thing, like, it’s not like you’re trying to diminish others. It’s just like, yes, you might think, Oh, this $50 isn’t worth it, or this is silly. So it’s, it’s really looking through the lens of your life, of like, I’m going to ask my husband or my partner to deliver me a glass of water that’s right next to me. I’m going to allow myself to, you know, do the four, what we call the four S’s, which is like safe nervous system screens, parentheses, podcasts and books, if you’re analog, sensory, intense experiences, novelty and dopamine, which has some overlap with ADHD and special interests, like
Kristen Carder 53:03
all of that. I’m just like, Give me it.
Casey Ehrlich 53:06
So how can we incorporate all of that and the accommodations into the way that we structure our lives, so that when we get to the moment when we’re trying to put fucking things on the calendar, which is our kryptonite,
Kendahl Damashek 53:19
literally, we literally will text each other kryptonite, because calendaring is very hard.
Casey Ehrlich 53:25
Like, I can’t see it. My husband has started to have to do it for me. And I’m like, is this, is this being autistic? Is this post menopause? Like, what is happening? And so I’m accommodating myself, of like, well, you need to body double me to go through this, and I need to write it on the calendar analog, and you need to put it in the Google Calendar, because I cannot see it. So anyways, like it’s easier for us to confront those losses of autonomy with a window, if we’re looking through the PDA lens and accommodating ourselves in the rest of our lives with self compassion,
Kristen Carder 54:00
this is like, this is exactly what you said in the last episode with how we treat our PDA kids, yeah, which is, like, accommodating them so that we can build that window, so that they then have access to their thinking brain and can live out what they want to do. Yeah? And that’s what you’re saying here. Is, like, accommodate lower demands, build that window of tolerance to yourself for self,
Kendahl Damashek 54:28
yes, yeah, which I think
Casey Ehrlich 54:30
is harder for us. I know, I know, because it’s like, Oh, I’m not supposed to be on the couch watching shows for 10 hours. But like, what if that’s what you need? Right? Like, what’s wrong with it? Objectively, right, morally, I do it with reading and journaling. Like, when I was younger, instead of being on an iPad all the time, I literally spent every minute that I wasn’t engaged journaling. And I have to look at what my boys do with screens. Is the same thing. Of like, this is their. Regulation block, wow.
Kristen Carder 55:04
So what has that maybe looked like for you first? Can you just speak to like? Do you feel that in yourself, that resistance, even to the quote, unquote demand that you want? Oh yeah, the thing that you want? Oh
Kendahl Damashek 55:19
yeah. I brought three books with me on this trip. Okay, guess how much I read? Zero. Yeah, I, like, bought these books for myself, right? Like, I went to the bookstore and I was like, this looks really interesting, or this is from one of my favorite authors, or this is a book case you recommended that I really want to read, and I had all the intention of reading them right, and I couldn’t. I couldn’t right and and so before this awareness and this acceptance of myself, I would get really frustrated with myself, right? Like, how come my bedside reading list grows and grows and grows like, the pile has now become. Two piles has now become, let’s put those on the bookshelves and start a new pile. And, you know, and I, you know, I would go through phases where sometimes, and I didn’t know why, sometimes I would be able to read four books in a month, and sometimes I wouldn’t read for three years. And now I understand well, those times when I was reading four books in a month, I was regulated, right? And that was like the only task I had, you know, and then the times when I couldn’t were times when I didn’t have the regulation to do that. But absolutely, I feel that all the time, and it really is like the two different areas of the brain being disparate, right? So, like, I buy the book here, yes, and then I want to read it. And the wanting to read it is very meta, right? So like the wanting to read it is the loss of autonomy, because now I want to read it, no, no, no, but I want to read it. No, you know. And it’s like, then the book I slept with, the books next to me in the bed,
Kristen Carder 57:27
yeah, the two parts of the brain warring against each other, yes, yeah.
Kendahl Damashek 57:32
And it feels frustrating right until we come to a place of acceptance, I mean. And then it still can feel frustrating, but at least there’s also self compassion, yes, yeah, right. And then we can start, once we come from a place of compassion, like, then I can start to accommodate myself, right? Then I can look at those three books on the on the nightstand and be like, that’s a sign of dysregulation, right? And I can think through like, I traveled today, you know, I didn’t have a safe nervous system for X many hours today, while I was traveling alone, right? I’m in a hotel room alone. I am, you know, like, like, there are so many things happening in this moment, even if it’s, you know, it’s not a burnout, but I’m still having activation, and then I have a framework for understanding myself and not getting upset and just being like, Okay, I might not read.
Kristen Carder 58:30
And like, the world still goes on. The
Kendahl Damashek 58:32
world still goes on, and
Kristen Carder 58:33
I’m not gonna go to jail, nope, no, and you’re not hurting anyone,
Kendahl Damashek 58:37
no, and I’m not a bad person.
Kristen Carder 58:39
Yeah, yeah, oh, that’s so helpful. That’s so helpful. What are ways that you What are additional ways that you’ve lowered demands for yourself, and is that the language that you like to use lower demands? Or, yeah, I mean, accommodate, or either way.
Kendahl Damashek 58:57
Well, I think accommodate is broader, right? So, like, lowering demands is one way that I accommodate myself. Okay, yes, so, yeah. So lowering demands for myself might look like, you know, like when I was first experimenting with this, I was like, getting getting into pajamas was this task.
Casey Ehrlich 59:18
you too, no, not about
Kendahl Damashek 59:23
me. Don’t worry. I didn’t see that. But like it just it would take me so long to get in pajamas like this should be a five minute task at most. The pajamas are very clearly different from the clothes, right
Casey Ehrlich 59:41
land. It’s a sensory incentive, right? Like, from a sensory lens, it’s like, why would you just jump into
Kendahl Damashek 59:46
from buttons to no buttons, like, like, let’s Yeah. And I would literally stand in front of the closet, and then I would, like, go do something else, and I would come back and stand in front of the closet, yeah.
Kristen Carder 59:59
So do you sleep naked now? Yeah, no, that’s not the accommodation, because that could be fun accommodation if I
Kendahl Damashek 1:00:04
didn’t have four children, like, go to different parts of the house that I then it would be I used to, though, before kids. But, like, I just stopped to change, okay, just would go to bed in my day clothes. Yes, yes. And that was like the first demand that I lowered for myself, and it seems really trivial, right? It’s like, okay, how is that going to change your nervous system? Kendall, you just literally just didn’t get changed into pajamas. But it did, because it’s not about how small the task is. It is. It can be a tiny task or a huge task, either way, loss of autonomy or equality is what is making the difference. And so the expectation to change into the pajamas was what was dysregulating for me. And so lowering the demand of the changing was regulating for me in like a one to one ratio. And then, you know, so that’s one way bringing in safe nervous systems. So, like, we don’t have this now that we’ve moved, but for a while, we had a housekeeper who was really like a who is really like a trusted, close friend of mine. And so she would come and yes, she was, like, making beds and lowering demands for myself and my kids, also, right? Because also accommodation, also an accommodation, but also her presence during the day, regulating was regulating for me. So, like I was co regulating my kids, and she was co regulating me. Oh, beautiful, yeah. And now we have move with you. Unfortunately, I would, I would have brought her with. She’s amazing. Now we just have guinea pigs, but, but, you know, I’ll do that like, I’ll like, I’ll feel myself getting, you know, and there’s not another adult in the house for me to regulate against. And so I’ll just go grab a guinea pig, and I’ll literally put them on my chest, like heart to heart, you know. So bringing in safe nervous systems is big for me, you know, thinking through this 4s system that Casey was talking about, right? So safe nervous system screens, I have my phone on me all the time, and I used to feel really bad about that, like, I’m not a I did not come from a pro screen place, like it came from a crunchy granola. I still had a flip phone when my kids were little, we didn’t have an iPad until it was covid, and then we were buying a house, and I needed my children to stay alive while I talk to the mortgage broker. So therefore Sesame Street came in like that, like, but now I have, you know, an iPhone, and it is on me, like, I literally have a chain that I carry it around the house with, because that way, no matter whether I have pockets or not, like, it’s always with me, yes, and I just accept that like this is an accommodation for me. If I’m going to do dishes, I’m going to either be listening to a podcast or I’m going to have an episode of Real Housewives on
Kristen Carder 1:03:10
which which location is your place. All of them, okay? Love it. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Okay, so safe. Nervous System screens. What are the other ones again? So
Kendahl Damashek 1:03:19
then sensory, intense experiences, dopamine and novelty. So I always have my, my safety water bottle with, you know, filled with ice water, like, fill the entire thing with ice, then with water. So that’s like, cold, cold, sensory, fizzy.
Kristen Carder 1:03:37
That’s so interesting. I didn’t realize that that was part of it
Kendahl Damashek 1:03:40
Yeah, yeah, because it’s a sensory, intense experience,
Casey Ehrlich 1:03:44
intense experience, like spicy food can be something else, yes,
Kristen Carder 1:03:49
yeah, smart. And
Kendahl Damashek 1:03:50
then I’ve started, like, recognizing that I have sensory sensitivity to, like, fabrics and so, like, I’ll only wear things that feel good on my hands, or, you know, so smart, and then dopamine and novelty, right? Like, I will, like, one of the things, like, I will go thrifting, like, when I have time for myself, like, I will go, because it’s, there’s always something new, you know, like, I love, there’s this great, like, vintage warehouse where we moved, and it’s like, like, a curated flea market that has all these cool things, and it’s just like, okay, different, new things, yes, novelty, dopamine, that I buy something. And instead of feeling like it’s a waste, right, like I didn’t need that, I actually did need it. I did need it from a nervous system perspective,
Kristen Carder 1:04:39
looking through the lens of accommodation, yes, yes. You’re looking through the lens of building your window of tolerance, yes, so that you can function in other areas.
Kendahl Damashek 1:04:48
Yes. And building that window looks different from traditional advice, right? Like, I’m not going for walks, I’m not taking more naps, I’m not like meditating. I mean, once in a while, but like, those aren’t the things that, like for me, bring me that same level of regulation that allow me to function and just acceptance of that that I don’t have to. Like, I can design my own. I mean, hashtag autonomy, right? Like, I can design my own. So good. Like, accommodations, so good. Yeah. And then the last one special interests, you know. So that sometimes, for me, combines all those things, like all of the Real Housewives franchises, you know, but it’s also special interest in human behavior, right? So, like, I love watching anything that’s like, you know, exploration exactly well in your work. I was, yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating, yeah.
Kristen Carder 1:05:47
So this has been amazing. I adore you both. I want you to move to Pennsylvania. Come be my friend. Start making plans. Please. Do you could do another move?
Kendahl Damashek 1:05:59
Oh, yeah, why not? We just did when it worked. Well, yeah,
Kristen Carder 1:06:03
for someone listening, who is likely ADHD and just thinking like, oh my gosh, like, this sounds like me, maybe they’re resonating. Maybe their heart rate is like, maybe their heart’s beating really fast, or just like, seeing themselves through what you’ve explained so clearly through your stories. What like? What should they do? Like? What’s their next step? Maybe, yeah, I think
Kendahl Damashek 1:06:33
just you know, giving yourself permission to explore whether or not this feels like a helpful lens to look through, right, like, there’s no requirement for this to be what defines you, and there’s no requirement for this not to Right. Like, like, the autonomy is yours, right? You know, you’re very
Kristen Carder 1:07:02
like, you’re very much saying you get to decide. You get to decide you
Kendahl Damashek 1:07:07
do you and like, start with a small experiment, right? Like, if you’re feeling like, this resonates for you. Like, what is your equivalent of not changing into pajamas at night? What is the smallest thing that you can give yourself permission to drop, or the smallest area where you can give yourself autonomy and choice, where you previously have felt that you didn’t have any and like just giving yourself permission to try one thing, and then if it If it feels different for you, and it feels improved. Try two, yeah, try another one. Try another one. Yeah, yeah, I love that. And Casey, would you just speak to
Kristen Carder 1:07:54
like giving would you speak to like the permission for the ADHD ers to explore this. Yeah, I feel like we need just like, a little like, a permission slip. Would you write a permission slip for us? ADHD ers to explore this, even though the conversation is usually around autism and PDA, can, can the listening audience still have a place to like, explore Absolutely.
Casey Ehrlich 1:08:26
So as you might have noticed with the way that we talk about all this stuff, at its very, very core is our principles of autonomy and equality. And so what that means is like, if this is resonating for your lived experience, it’s relevant to you. And it doesn’t matter if you’re diagnosed or not, or if certain countries categorize it as such, it’s really about, we always say, what helps, right? And so permission to experiment with this logic, permission to make it your own. And you know, one thing I know from working with and being friends with ADHD ers is like, they’re, they’re like, a very dynamic and creative bunch, and really fun to be around. And one of the things I love about my ADHD friends is their creativity. And so as Kendall said, you know, what is your not changing into pajamas and what is your thrifting, right? Like, instead of, you know you need to get a bubble bath or get a massage. Like, are you someone who likes to solder or bake or garden? Like, what do you transform as a way of getting dopamine? And that can be your therapy.
Kristen Carder 1:09:55
So, good. Permission slip written. Yeah. Granted.
Casey Ehrlich 1:09:59
Yeah, from a non clinician, okay, don’t come for me. Neuro divergent woman to neuro divergent
Kristen Carder 1:10:10
human, but still, someone who is in the field, yes, working with so many children, teens, parents. I mean, that matters. That really does matter. That’s not nothing. No, that’s not nothing.
Casey Ehrlich 1:10:23
No, I just don’t want to get accused of misrepresenting. But full permission to the ADHD ers,
Kendahl Damashek 1:10:31
yeah, I love that. Full
Kristen Carder 1:10:33
permission. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you so much, both of you.
Speaker 1 1:10:37
Thank you for having, yeah, thanks for having such an honor. It was. It’s been so much fun talking with you cool
Kristen Carder 1:10:44
listener, all of the information that you need about at peace parents and how Casey and Kendall might be able to help you. If that’s something you want, you get to choose is in the show notes. So go find it, and let’s do this again really soon. Yeah, love it. Thank you. All right, we’ll talk to you next week. Hey, ADH, dear. I see you. I know exactly what it’s like to feel lost, confused, frustrated, and like no one out there really understands the way that your brain works. That’s why I created focused. Focused is my monthly coaching program, where I lead you through a step by step process of understanding yourself, feeling better and creating the life that you know you’re meant for. You’ll study, be coached, grow and make amazing changes, alongside of other educated professional adults with ADHD from all over the world visit Ihaveadhd.com/focused, to learn more.
