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Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That’s kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial@shopify.com listen shopify.com listen. Welcome to the I have ADHD Podcast where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I’m your host Kristen Carter and I have adhd. Let’s chat about the frustrations, humor, and challenges of adulting relationships, working and achieving. Achieving. With this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential, and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Kristen Carter and you are listening to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, I am caffeinated, and I am ready to roll. Today we are talking about ADHD and SA with a straight up sex therapist, y’. All. It’s gonna be good. I was introduced to Ari Tuckman’s work several years ago when I binge read his book More Attention, Less Deficit. And then I went through his workbook, understand you’d brain get more done. And that helped me so much. I highly recommend it. Today though, we’re gonna focus on a topic that a lot of you are requesting more of, which is ADHD and sexual, which happens to be one of Dr. Tuckman’s areas of expertise. So let me tell you a little bit about him and then we’re going to get rolling. Dr. Ari Tuckman is a psychologist, sex therapist, ADHD expert, author and presenter in Westchester, Pennsylvania. He is the author of four books, most recently ADHD After Dark, Better Sex Life, Better Relationship, which we will be talking about today. He’s the co chair of the Chad Conference Committee. So welcome, Dr. Tuckman. Thank you so much for being here with me today. It is a pleasure to be here. I’m glad that we’re. I don’t know, somehow our paths have never crossed. I don’t know how that happened before now, but here we are. Here we are. I’m so, so looking forward to hanging out, having this conversation. We have so much to talk about, but I want to ask you the most pressing question on my mind right off the bat, because loyalty to Philly sports is in my blood. So my question is, are you a Philly sports fan? Do you love the Eagles? Are you excited for Philly baseball to start soon? I guess. That was three questions, but go ahead, tell me the things. Oh, man. We’re starting the interview off on a bad note. I’m not a sports guy, right? I just. I never grew up watching sports. It was never a thing. I don’t know. Like, I respect the people who are. It’s just like. I don’t know. I just don’t get it, so. Totally. So, yeah, dude. It’s like. But I’m happy for you, okay? Right. Don’t be happy for me because Philly doesn’t win anything right now, so it’s really just like when I was. Okay, my condolences to you. Thank you. That’s what I need. I need condolences right now. It’s hilarious. Okay, so I’m very, very much looking forward to chatting with you. I did an episode recently with Kate Osborne, who is a sex educator, certified sex educator. And that episode got so much response, and I’ve been not hounded. But, like, a lot of people have reached out for more on sex and adhd. And when I was on your website the other day, I noticed that you are a sex therapist, which is amazing, but I don’t know what that is. So what’s a sex therapist? Yeah, so sex therapist is first of all therapist, right? Like, someone who’s just a general. Has all the basic general therapy skills, but also specifically has training in sexual matters. You know, so some of that’s kind of knowing a bit of the biology of how things work or don’t, but it’s also like knowing the psychology of the individual and, you know, how what goes on inside our head affects, you know, sexual performance and pleasure and desire. And also because mostly we. Well, often when we’re doing something sexual, there’s probably somebody else there. Not always, but often. So, you know, also the relationship piece of it. So, you know, it’s kind of specific training on that area, that important area of life. Totally, yeah. It’s such an important area of life. And the response that I got after the first episode that I did on sex was a lot of people didn’t realize that ADHD affects. Affects that area of life, which is so fascinating because for me, in the last, you know, 10 years, realizing that ADHD affects every single area of life, of course my brain goes to, like, that’s a very important area of my life, and ADHD affected there. What ways do you, in working with your clients, see ADHD coming up a lot in that area? So, like, how does ADHD affect sex in general? That’s kind of a loaded, large question. You’re like, yeah, that’s the point. That’s a big. How many hours do you have? So, yeah, well, so, I mean, so the thing of it is, like, yeah, nobody has really looked into it. So, you know, all these people who are wondering. They’re wondering. Well, they’re sort of wondering alone in the sense that people aren’t talking about it, but they’re not alone in the sense that many, many other people are having the same. Same question. So. So the sort of obvious level is, how does ADHD impact how you get along with the person that you’re having sex with. Right. So boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, whatever. Because, you know, obviously what happens by day, what happens between us when we have our clothes on, affects our interest, our willingness, our generosity, our sense of safety with the person that ostensibly we’re having sex with. Right. So there’s that part of it. And just like to state the obvious, couples who are doing better by day tend to be more interested in being sexual with each other, at least, you know, at other parts of the day. So there’s that if you’re not managing your ADHD well by day, if your partner isn’t managing their part of things well by day, then there’s less sex happening at other times, you know, in the evening or whenever. But there’s also a direct effect of ADHD on the individual’s sex life as well. And this is kind of a thing that before I wrote ADHD After Dark, I did some research into this because nobody had done the research. So I’m very happy to make things up, but, you know, maybe we should actually get some data and say the things that are correct. So I did this giant survey, and a whole lot of people filled it out. And indeed, ADHD affects sexuality for the individual as well. And the coolest thing that I found, which totally makes sense, but I didn’t predict it, but it made sense when I saw it, was that ADHD impacts what I call sexual eagerness. And this is when I took all my questions in the survey and I looked at the one, and I pulled out the ones that had anything to do with kind of, as you would think, sexual eagerness, meaning stuff like, how often would you like to have sex? Not how often do you. Because that’s partially dependent on your partner, but how often would you like to have sex? How often do you masturbate? How often do you look at porn? How do you feel about your porn? Use your partner’s porn, use how, you know, easily. How quickly and easily do you become aroused? You know, things of that sort. So there are like 12 questions that somehow, you know, spoke to this idea of sexual eagerness. The folks with ADHD rated themselves higher on 10 out of 12 and tied on the other two. Wow. So. So, you know, for all of us, sexuality, to varying degrees, is somewhere there, you know, in our minds. Right? It’s a thing that’s of interest. It’s a thing that kind of drives and motivates us. But for folks with adhd, they. They’re a bit more kind of tuned into. They kind of feel that desire A bit more than folks without adhd. So it makes sense, Right? Because sex is interesting and hopefully. And pleasurable. Hopefully, folks with ADHD tend to be more attuned to the things that are interesting and pleasurable. Yes. Okay, so this is a perfect segue to a question. So for the listener, I was speaking with Dr. Tuckman earlier, telling him that I actually polled Focus members for questions because I knew I was going to be having this conversation. And I was thinking, you know, I can create my own questions, but what are the things that my clients are struggling with? And one of the questions centers around, like, addiction. What do you do when you feel addicted to sex as a form of dopamine? Which I think is an interesting point that you’re making, is that, like, we lack in dopamine. And if. If you are, you know, having fun in sex, and if it’s feeling good, then you might crave it even more than the average person. Do you find that a lot of ADHDers struggle or present with sexual addiction? So I think it’s an interesting question. So, first of all, I don’t really buy into the idea that sex is truly addictive the way that, like, alcohol or Percocet is. Yeah, tell me why. That’s a bit of an academic debate, but nonetheless, people do suffice to say, people make bad choices about sex. People behave badly when it comes to sex. Right. But people make bad choices about everything. Right. So I don’t think sex is unique in that way, but. But I think to the heart of the question, Yeah. I mean, sex or masturbation? Well, sex, partnered or otherwise, can definitely be kind of a distraction from other things that are also important, but definitely not as fun. And it’s sort of. I don’t know, it brings up the term. This. I wish. God, I wish I could claim I invented this term, but I can’t. But procrastinating, right? So that’s. Right. Which is. It’s masturbating as a form of procrastination, you know, or just tabbing over to that porn site rather than, like, the Excel spreadsheet or whatever, you know? So, like, it’s really tempting. Like, let’s be honest, right? It’s almost always better than the other important, responsible adult things, things you’re supposed to be doing. Right? So that’s definitely true. The kind of the. The way that, in general I would think about it is if it ain’t a problem, it ain’t a problem, right? Like, if you have your fun and then you go back to Whatever you’re doing, it’s not any different than, like, I don’t know, looking at stupid things on Facebook or reading the New York Times or, I don’t know, whatever. Right. The other things that we do to kind of occupy ourselves. But however, if it is a problem, then it is a problem. Right? And it’s a problem meaning you’re spending way too long on it, which is a time management problem, not a sex problem. If you’re doing things that you don’t feel good about, if you’re doing things with people that afterwards you don’t feel good about, you know, But I, again, sex isn’t different. Like, if you say, I’m going to spend five minutes on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and it’s an hour, and you’re like, oh, God, why did I do that? Or you wind up looking at stuff that you’re like, oh, I just got into a political debate with some idiot. You know, why did I do that? I don’t feel good about myself. Or I just got into, you know, I posted things I don’t feel good about. Right. So, like, so it’s not specific to sex. It’s just sort of in general, like, how do you feel about it afterwards? Do you feel like you’re making good choices with your time? Hmm. Okay, so my next question is actually centered around hyposexuality. Is that what it’s called when you are actually not experiencing the drive that other people are? So I know that, like, it makes sense in my brain that somebody with ADHD is going to crave it more because of the dopamine and maybe impulsivity and all of that. But I’m also hearing from a large segment of people who are saying, like, I’m not actually that interested in it. And, like, the interruption in my day or my evening or my thought process is actually really difficult. Have you worked with people that struggle with that? Is that common for adhd? Is that just kind of like, is that something that, like, a typical human would struggle with as well? Or is that kind of centered for an adhd? Or it’s all of the above. So there are definitely some folks who feel like they have a harder time, I don’t know, kind of mentally shifting. Set. Right. Shifting from here. I am doing responsible things to, ooh, here’s something fun. Or at least at the moments where it could be happening. So maybe in the middle of the day, they’re like, oh, I would like to do something with my partner, but they’re not here. But later we will and then later comes and they get kind of caught up in other things. So I did find in my survey that’s a bit more true for women than men that, you know, it’s harder to kind of mentally shift gears into being sexual. But I think some of it is also not specifically an ADHD thing so much as a consequences of additional stress from adhd. Meaning if you’re just generally more stressed out in your life, right there feels like there’s more demands that aren’t getting done. If you’re stealing from sleep so you’re more tired, that can definitely have a negative effect on sexual desire. If you’re not taking care of yourself. So physically you don’t feel as good. But if you’re taking, I don’t know, an antidepressant, those are kind of notorious, I’ll say reducers of sex drive or the ability to perform sexually or to reach orgasm or experience the same amount of pleasure. So you know, there’s those impacts as well. Fortunately, most people found that, that the stimulants for ADHD don’t really have that much of effect on sexual pleasure performance. Maybe for some people they do a little bit, for most people they really don’t. So if you feel like it’s having a negative effect for you, take that into account. Otherwise, whatever. So, so I think, you know, there’s no blanket statements here. It’s more about what applies to the individual. What advice do you have for someone who’s experiencing hyposexuality where they’re just like not as into it as their partner is or really struggles with the transition into like, okay, now like I just did all my work and then I did second shift which is like kid time. And now like now there’s the opportunity, but I’m just like so depleted. What is the, what advice do you have for that person? So I think so this is a good question. I think there, there’s kind of a multi part answer, right? The first question is what is their true sexual desire and what is the more situational one? Right. And what you just described of feeling depleted is, is, is somewhat more situational. So in other words, if this is someone who on vacation or on a leisurely weekend, if such a thing exists, if you know at those points they feel much more in touch with their sexual desire, then we say, okay, this seems to be like a depleted stress thing. And if that’s the problem, so to speak, then that points us towards some solutions. Let’s try to carve out some time let’s, you know, so that sexuality isn’t the last thing that happens, which means it doesn’t happen. Let’s try to maybe reduce some of the stress, balance of workloads, find some ways to kind of shift some things so that, you know, we can also take care of ourselves here. Right? Maybe that’s the thing. But there’s also something, you know, this idea of what’s called responsive desire, which is kind of like, it sounds, right? It’s desire that responds. It doesn’t sort of show up spontaneously, as in, like, oh, it’s been a couple of days. I’m sort of interested. Right. But it’s more like, oh, we’re starting to do some things. We’re starting to touch. We’re starting to kiss some. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. Okay. Actually, turns out now I am in the mood, right? And Emily Nagoski is this awesome, you know, sex educator who’s written and presented and done a million podcasts and whatever. So, like, you know, check her out with responsive desire. But if you know that your desire often responds. Not always, but often, it’s sort of this idea of, like, being willing to see where it goes, right? Like, I’m willing to be convinced. It’s like when your spouse is like, hey, let’s. Let’s go for a walk. You’re like, ugh, like, no, no, come on, look, it’s sunny out. Like, yeah, dude, like, bundle up the kids. Let’s go. We’re gonna do. And you’re like, okay, fine. And then you get there. You’re like, actually, that was pretty good. Yeah. Right? So it’s kind of like that same thing, right? How we feel in this moment may not be how we’ll feel later. Obviously, there’s nothing in this to say that you can’t say no later. Right. You didn’t sign a contract, so, you know. But at least you’re willing to see where it’s going to go. What would be a healthy way to communicate that, do you think, to a partner where it’s like, I know I don’t initiate, but I’m willing to see where it goes. Like, what. How do you communicate that in a way that. Where you don’t sound like a weirdo? Yeah, well, first of all, you’re not a weirdo. Right? Right. So statistically speaking, you are not a weirdo. Right. You’re in very good company, numbers wise. So. But. But it’s really about. I mean, first of all, just communicate. Have the fricking conversation, right? Talk, talk, talk. And that means say things about you. That means ask things about your partner. You know, like, for me, this is. This. This is what will most get me in the mood. Here are the situations where I might be most interested. Here’s what I’m willing to do. Here’s what I’m asking you to do, and then vice versa. Let me ask that of you. You know, so, like, have the conversations, and presumably you have the same goal, which is a happy relationship, right? This is a part of it, and it’s. In some ways, it’s not. What you do doesn’t matter as much as why you do it. Doesn’t matter as much as that it feels like a thing that works for both of you. I think it’s also important to have some conversation about, like, if one of us is in the mood and the other one isn’t, then what. What are the options? What feels okay? What doesn’t feel okay? Because that takes some of the pressure off of, like, we have to do this together, and if we don’t do it together, we can’t do it alone. If we can’t do it alone, then we better do it together. And now nobody’s involved. That’s so. Yeah, that’s really helpful. Really, really helpful. One of the things that I hear from ADHD years, and I actually just had a conversation with a client the other day, is that perfectionism often gets in the way of her initiating. So I am totally blanking on his name. Not Russell Barkley, but the other Russell. He also lives in Philly, teaches at UPenn. Yeah. Russ Ramsey. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Great guy. He’s a great guy. Also, Philly sports fan. I’m just saying. He’s a better man than me. I’m just saying. I’m just saying. Okay. Dr. Ramsey says that perfectionism is the most commonly endorsed thought distortion for adults with adhd. And it makes sense in my brain that that would also show up when it comes to sexuality, sex, initiating, or just whatever. And so how can ADHDers recognize perfectionism and help themselves and their partners to kind of, like, ditch that perfectionism so that they can have the relationship that they want? Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. Like, when it comes to sexuality, in busy lives, perfection is almost never there, you know? Or just in general relationships and busy lives. Right. Like, you got jobs and kids and mortgages and dogs barfing on the rug and, like, just like, this stuff, you know? So if you wait for the perfect moment, it’ll never happen. And. But that’s fine. Like, it doesn’t have to be perfect, just needs to be good enough. So. So I think if you know this to be true about yourself, like, I tend to be too perfectionistic, or I tend to set too high a bar. I have to be just right, or my partner has to be just right, or what happened in the hours before has to be just right to sort of recognize it. And I don’t know, this is easy to say, but, like, talk yourself down, kind of remind yourself, you know what this is fine. Like, it is as good as it needs to be. It’s better to just do this in that, you know, the thing about having a good sex life is however it is that you define it, whatever that means to you, right? It. It adds energy to the relationship. It adds good feeling between the two partners. I think every couple benefits from it. But some couples who have more challenges for whatever reasons, right, which could be adhd, it could be situational of, like, you know, a lost job or a sick parent or a screaming toddler or whatever, right? Couples with more challenges need more of those connections. They need more of that positive energy. They need more of this stuff that brings them together and hopefully gives them a little more resilience to kind of bounce over the annoyances and frustrations and setbacks of daily life. Hmm. That’s so beautiful. One of the things that I learned from my coach is a phrase, B minus work can change the world. And that, like, it was such, like, a small, great phrase, right? It’s such a small shift. So B minus work can change the world, but work that doesn’t get done, it doesn’t help anybody. So, like, if. If the work never gets done, it doesn’t help anybody. So one of the things we’ve started saying in our community is B minus sex can change the world. Like, it’s not just be minus work, like your production, but it’s also just, like, allow it to be B minus. Like, it’s absolutely better than nothing. And I think that that can be really hard. But I think latching onto something like that, where it’s like, imperfection is better than nothing at all. And I think that’s really important, and I think it definitely is. And I think especially if we’re talking about something like sexuality, where, you know, pressure and pleasure, like performance, pressure and pleasure and function don’t go together. You know, like, if you feel pressure to perform now, it’s a final exam. It’s not like a fun thing we’re doing together. And, you know, so for guys that results kind of the obvious thing is like trouble getting it up. Not that one needs to have an erection in order to have a good experience or for their partner to have a good experience, right? But like for guys, trouble getting it up for. For everybody maybe trou enjoying it and being present in the moment and you know, if you would like to reach orgasm, trouble getting there, right? Because if everything has to be just right or if you’re putting pressure on yourself, it’s taking too long. I’m not getting there. What about this? What about that? Now you’re worrying and not focusing on the, you know, hot and fun parts of what’s going on. So, you know, like giving yourself permission to have B minus sex actually makes. Ironically makes it more likely to have even better than B minus. You know what I mean? Like so. So yeah. But you know, I think the other thing is if you’re having sex with somebody else, it might be that for one of you it’s kind of like, let’s just say pass fail sex, right? But for the other, it’s pretty good. You know, like if you’ve been together a while, sexual experiences don’t need to be kind of parallel, so to speak. We don’t have to have the same experience, we don’t have to both enjoy it the same amount. As long as we’re both doing okay, we’re both happy to be there, it’s all good. What do you think is like the antidote to pressure? So if pressure is there, and that’s what. Actually the conversation that I was having with a client the other day was like all centered around pressure. Like this pressure to initiate enough, the pressure to respond at the right times, the pressure to even do it right in the moment. Like so much pressure. What’s the antidote to that? What’s the opposite? I mean, I think it’s to ask yourself, like, why? Why the pressure? Like, why does it matter? Why does it need to be this specific way? Why can’t it be some other ways? And I don’t know, like, are you enjoying it? Right? If you’re not, unless you’re trying to get knocked up where there’s a film crew there, right? Like why? Pressure. What’s the pressure? Okay, so like if there is a film crew, then we. Then we can feel pressure. Like that could be like a bar, right? Like, is there. Yeah, you should. Because like, no. Yeah, it’s a job. You’re on the clock, right? You should. You don’t want to get put on performance improvement plan, right. So, yeah, if there’s a film crew, right, the different set of rules. So before the film crew shows up, you can do whatever you want. That is great. And now a word from our sponsor. Hey, Kristin here. I’m the host of this podcast, an ADHD expert and a certified life coach who’s helped hundreds of adults with ADHD understand their unique brains and make real changes in their lives. If you’re not sure what a life coach is, let me tell you. A life coach is someone who helps you achieve your goals. Like a personal trainer for your life, a life coach coach is a guide who holds your hand along the way as you take baby step after baby step to accomplish the things that you want to accomplish. A good life coach is a trained expert who knows how to look at situations, all situations, with non judgmental neutrality and offer you solutions that you’ve probably never even considered before. If you’re being treated for your ADHD and maybe, maybe even you’ve done some work in therapy and you want to add to your scaffolding of support, you’ve got to join my group coaching program, Focused. Focused is where functional adults with ADHD surround each other with encouragement and support. And I lead the way with innovative and creative solutions to help you fully accept yourself, understand your ADHD and create the life that you’ve always wanted, wanted to create, even with ADHD. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused to join and I hope to see you in our community today. I think one of the reasons why we feel pressure and this leads me to the next thing that I want to talk about is our propensity to be very sensitive to rejection. And I’m curious if you can speak to rejection sensitivity a little bit as it relates to, you know, what happens after dark. Like how do you see rejection sensitivity affecting the adhder? Let’s just start there and then maybe we could talk about like what can be done. Yeah. So, you know, rejection sensitive dysphoria, or sometimes as it’s called, RSD is this thing that happens for some folks with adhd, maybe not all or not all. And also, you know, some people who don’t have adhd, but, but it’s this kind of, as the name sounds, it’s this kind of strong, negative, very unpleasant response to some sort of perceived rejection, might actually in fact be a rejection might also just feel bigger than it is. So, you know, obviously like sex can be a pretty perfect personal thing, right? It can be vulnerable. We sort of put it out, put ourselves out there and hope that the Other person is interested, and it can feel, at a minimum, disappointing if they’re not. But it can also feel kind of personal if they’re not. And, you know, especially if our partner is sort of, I don’t know, like, frustrated or pissed off about some other things, then the no might have a whole lot more edge to it. Right. So in some ways, you might not actually be over reading where they’re, you know, like, what’s in the know. And I think that, you know, for folks the adhd, like, in general, especially if you’re an adult who didn’t get diagnosed until later in life, right. You’ve probably had a lot more negative experiences. Like, you know, you’ve had more experiences where people, let’s just say, were not happy with what you were doing. So it’s not. I don’t know. Sadly, it’s not completely inaccurate. Yeah, yeah. So here’s what I wanted you to say. I wanted you to say, well, like, we’re just. Nobody’s actually being rejected. It’s just like we’re making it up because that. That feels, I think, less painful, you know, but, like, yeah, you’re absolutely right. There is a level of rejection that comes with all of the mistakes that we’ve made. And the. Sometimes, especially if you’re with a partner for a long time, like, the body of evidence that they’ve gathered from, like, all of the mistakes. And that can be really tricky when you transition or try to transition into a vulnerable moment. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so, like, that’s the thing. Sometimes there is indeed, like, they are rejecting you, you know, because they are kind of pissed. I don’t know if they have good or bad reasons for it, but, like, that is actually what. What they’re doing. You know, Other times they’re just tired or preoccupied with other stuff, and it’s not actually about you. But it’s easy for all of us, I think, sometimes, to make the assumption if we’re being kind of, like, sensitive or insecure in that moment. So I think there’s a few takeaways. First takeaway is if you’re not interested, make sure you’re being nice about it. Thanks, but no thanks. If you’re frustrated about something, maybe try to deal with it earlier rather than later. Speak directly about it. Like, hey, you know, I thought you were gonna clean up the kitchen after dinner. What happened? Like, where. Where’d you go? Yeah. Rather than being resentful and then, you know, cold shoulder when you get into bed kind of thing, you know, so, like, direct Requests. And I think if you’re the person on the receiving end and it feels like the no has more of an edge, let’s ask. Right. Unless, you know for sure, actually ask. And it might be that your partner isn’t actually being as kind of rejecting as it feels like they are. We make a lot of assumptions about our partner because we feel like we know them well, and we do, but it doesn’t mean we’re always getting it right. So what would that question actually sound like? So it might be something like, seems like you’re kind of. I don’t know, it seems like you’re sort of pissed about something. Is that true? Or whatever the, you know, adjective is. Seems like you’re sort of whatever. Is that true? And, you know, sometimes the answer will be, actually, no. Sorry, I was, you know, something, something. Or it’s like, actually, yeah. Yeah, I was. So. So let’s have that conversation. Yeah, that’s interesting, because that can lead to a connection. It’s not the same kind of connection, but it’s connection where it’s like we’re having a conversation about, you know, a fracture in the relationship. And that can be important as well. I think, too. It’s like, one of the things that I struggle with just in general is like, actually believing my husband when he tells me he’s not mad. So it’s like asking the question, but then also believing the answer, you know, like, yeah, I feel like there’s something going on here. Something going on. And he’s like, no. But then I still want to go with my own story of, like, I know he is so mad at me, and, like, Here are the 27 reasons why. And then I allow that to affect all the things. Yeah, working on it. Working on it. But, like, really believing him. Yeah, believing him when he says, like, no. One of the things that I have started to ask and this is not, you know, related to sex, but just in general is, like, I see that, like, your mood is a little off or, like, you’re a little upset. I’m just curious is, does that have anything to do with me? Yes, exactly. And that’s been really helpful to get the confirmation of, like, no, this has nothing to do with you. And then I can kind of cut off my brain drama, you know, of like, all of the stories that I like to follow and. And just be like, okay, like, he can have a human experience of being upset or stressed or whatever it is. It’s fine. Humans have experiences like that. But just knowing that it’s not about me is what’s important for my soul, you know, and for my, like, even my productivity, my ability to just function. Knowing that, like, he’s upset, it doesn’t have to do with me. I can carry on. And I wonder if that would be an interesting question or if there’s some sort of, like, twist on that when there is a. You know, when a partner does say no or it’s not the right time or whatever. Just, like, inquiring, like, okay, that’s totally fine. I’m curious, like, is this, like, about you or is this about me? Like, are you not wanting to be with me because you don’t like me, or is it just, like, something’s going on in your brain? Yeah, so. So you’re. You’re really. You’re touching on something incredibly important. And the sort of technical term for it is differentiation. But the sort of more whatever way of saying it is, it’s sort of separating out how he’s feeling and how you’re feeling. Right? So if he’s having a moment for whatever reasons, but it’s not about you, I don’t need to feel worked up about it. Now. I might say, hey, is there something I can do to help? Right. Maybe, you know, but this isn’t about me. I’m not going to make it about me. I’m not going to let my anxiety insecurity tell me that it’s about me when it’s not. Right. And that’s important because if you’re off to the races on something that’s not true, it’s probably not helpful. Right. Just as a general statement, but frankly, even if he is upset with you, like, you know what? Yeah, it is about you. Because, like, I’m sort of annoyed about the fact that, I don’t know, you left all your shoes in the hallway or something. Okay, then let’s talk about that directly. Right? Because. But it’s about actually dealing with what’s on the table and having the courage to go towards the thing that makes you uncomfortable. Comfortable. For your part. But for his part, you know, if he is bothered by something, then he needs to use his words and tell you it’s not your job to either psychically know or to bust out the thumb screws and torture it out of him of, like, yes, I admit it. It’s the shoes in the hallway. Finally. Yes, that’s the. That’s. That’s what it is, right? So, like, if you ask and he doesn’t answer, mission accomplished, you have done your part, Right? Like that ball’s in his court now. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s some relief that can come with that if we manage our minds around it. Like, if we, like you said, intentionally don’t let the anxiety run wild. If we intentionally just continue to reassure ourselves, like, he’s. Whatever. My partner is a grownup. They can tell me, like, I’ve. I’ve opened the door to them telling me whether or not this is about me. And now, like, they can, but I’m going to believe their words. Like, they said, it’s not about me. I believe them. Yeah. I do think that’s such an important skill because what we. I call it, like, the toddler brain. Like, what the toddler brain wants to do is just like, loop, loop, loop, loop on that, you know? Just like. No, I know. I know that you’re really mad at me. And, like, I’m going to keep poking at it and digging and digging until I find out why, which is. That’s not a good experience for anybody. It’s not like it sucks for you and it’s not great for him, you know? Now the only sort of exception maybe is if he’s like, no, no, no, it’s not about you. But then some amount of time goes by, not 30 seconds, and it’s like, dude, you still seem like you’re in a bad mood. Like, seriously, what is the deal? I feel like you’re not being honest. Right. So maybe you ask again, but then that’s it. Then it’s like, all right, you know what? If there’s something to say, you need to tell me, but otherwise I’m going to assume it isn’t about me. Like, I’m going to go on with my day and that’s. It sounds maybe like that sort of uncaring, but it really isn’t. Like, it’s sort of. In some ways, it’s a respectful stance because you’re saying, like, look, I have faith in you as an adult. You’ll figure this out. You will let me know if it’s about me and me hounding you isn’t actually helpful. Yeah. And it’s not. It’s not helpful. And like, we were just saying it’s not fun. It’s not fun for me. It’s not fun for him. It’s like, leave me alone. You know, it, like, usually ends up in that kind of situation where it’s just like, ah, well. And the reason why it does is if you. If he’s in some sort of a mood for, you know, I suppose, reasons we don’t yet know, let’s say. And if you then get spun up and then you start chasing him, is it about me? Is it this? Is it that. What’s happening? You have to tell me what about, you know, Right. It. What happens is it then becomes a situation where somehow now it’s become his job to manage your anxiety. He’s stressed out about some thing at work, and now he’s got to talk you down about the fact that he’s stressed. It’s like, now you’ve doubled his workload. Wow, that’s so insightful. That’s so insightful. Yeah. Like, giving a human the space to have a human experience, I think, is some of the hardest work that we do as we transition into emotional adulthood is like, letting other people be stressed, letting other people be sad, letting other people have a hard time and not trying to, like, obsessively anxiously fix it or, you know, need that reassurance, but just like, okay, I’m here for you if you need anything. Yeah. And, you know, now the other side of this is I think it’s a fair and reasonable thing to say, you know, look for me for my own reasons based on my history and whatever. Right. Like, it’s helpful for me to know. So, like, just FYI, if you’re in a crappy mood and it’s not about me, if you could just somehow, like, you know, give me the signal, let me know, that’ll make it much easier for me to not get spun up on it. So, like, I am asking this of you. Right. Like, that’s a fair request to make. Yeah. That has been the transition for me, is make just asking for that reassurance and kind of prepping Greg ahead of time. Like, hey, and this was a conversation with my therapist and then saying, like, hey, I was talking to my therapist. Like, I just need to know, like, when you’re in a bad mood or when something is happening with you, I will probably check in and say, hey, is this about me? And if you could just, like, give me the space to do that and answer honestly, then I will take care of all of my own drama. Like, I will take that so that you don’t have to manage it. Yeah. And. But that’s the key. Right? Right There is. Is where couples get in, get, you know, miserable. And in the ditch is when it all gets blurred together. Right. And what you’re doing in that is you’re. You’re taking your stuff, you’re saying, oh, wait, this is mine. Let me deal with mine, as opposed to, like, no, this is yours. You’re giving this to me. You’re in a bad mood. That’s why I feel insecure. And you have to then not be in a bad mood so as to enable me to not feel insecure. Right. Like, so now it’s again, like, it’s his job to manage how you feel, or it’s your job to manage how he feels. And, man, that’s a hard job to do. As opposed to. Oh, wait a second. That’s not my job. Like, my job is managing me. Your job is managing you. Okay, got it. We got to be good to each other, and we’re going to be supportive, but I’m not responsible. Responsible for making sure that you’re feeling okay because there’s too much of how you feel that’s out of my control. Yeah. And it goes back to that trust and just, like, giving someone the respect of, like, you’re an adult. I believe that you, first of all, know what you’re feeling. Second of all, know whether or not it’s about me. Third, can just, like, handle your own stuff. Yeah. I. It’s just so interesting because I do think, at least, like, with my clients, and I don’t know if it’s specific to ADHD years, because I only work with ADHD years, but, like, we really do feel responsible to manage other people’s emotions. And untangling ourselves from that is. It’s a lot of work. It is. It is. And, you know, like, we are attuned to the emotions of others. Right. Like, we’re social creatures. If you’re not attuned, you will step on a lot of toes. You will have a lot of problems in your day. Right. So, like, we are wired to be attuned to the emotions of others, so they will grab our attention. But sometimes it’s not the thing. As Alan Brown says, this is not what I’m doing now. Right. Where it’s sort of like, okay, I assume you’re having some sort of emotion. I may or may not choose to get involved in it. Right. Because it might be that. Look, this is not my thing right now. This is your thing right now. Yeah. Let’s chat just for a second about focus. So obviously, adults with ADHD will often struggle to focus. Like, that doesn’t exclude after dark time. So one of the questions that came up in my community was, like, how do I even stay focused long enough to go from point A to point B with my partner? And, like, I. Yeah, like, spacing out was the word that they Used random thoughts coming in, kind of like looping on obsessive other things happening in life. So how do you suggest that we adhders, who obviously struggle with distraction are a lot of times the meds have worn off, you know, by the time that like intimate time is happening with partners. So like, how do you suggest that we stay focused enough to. I don’t know. That’s a weird question. To have sex. It’s a good question. So good question. Yeah. So I think, you know, I’ve got a bunch of thoughts. I mean, one of them is free. Worst of all, this is normal, by which I mean it’s. It’s not an uncommon experience. And you know, for some people it’s a, it’s a frequent occurrence. For other people it’s just a, you know, once in a while thing for whatever reasons. But so, you know, some of this is kind of back to the B minus thing, right? Like it doesn’t have to be that, you know, like movie sex is great, but like it’s not real life. Not when you’ve been together a while while and you know, you have all the stresses of life. So, you know, so a bit of distraction is fine. Just sort of when you catch yourself or if you catch your partner, right. Just like, come on back, here we are here. You know, like in that kind of mindful way, right? Of like, oh, I’m distracted. All right, coming back, here we are. This is what we’re doing. And so to not read any meaning into it, I’m distracted because my partner is not good enough or my partner is attracted because I’m not good enough or, or any of that insecurity, misery, you know, maybe if you’re someone where medication helps your focus, including during sexual activities, if you can get away with it at least sometimes try to be sexual during times where your meds are working rather than when they faded out. Yeah, I think also, and this is, I think a thing for everybody is sometimes a little bit of a difference makes a bigger difference difference meaning instead of like getting into bed at 10 where you’re totally fading, you get into bed at like 9:30 or even 9:45 or it’s sometimes just a little bit more time, a little bit more energy makes it a whole lot of a better experience. And to really just try to bring yourself back to the. Whatever’s happening in the moment, right. Like physically, how do I feel? And you know, just tuning into your senses, tooling in, tuning into the kind of, you know, in your head, the sort of erotic aspects of what’s going on, like, what’s turning you on about this, or if there’s a fantasy that really helps you get you off, like, you know, kind of play with that and to just, I don’t know, see it as a thing that, again, just has to be good enough. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It just needs to be good. I think that your point about not reading meaning into it is so important. Yeah. Because what I find that we do so often, and this is just in all areas of our life is like, we. Okay, so, like, we have the problem of not focusing, but then in just. Instead of just noticing, like, oh, I’m not focused, let me bring my attention back. We layer judgment, guilt, like, all of that on top of it. And so now the problem, which is pretty easily remedied, there’s a pretty easy fix to, like, not being focused. You notice you’re not focused. Let’s just bring it back. Like, we layer so much emotion on top of it that now it’s a problem that’s, like, it’s much bigger than the original thing. And that’s exactly right. Like, because, like, let’s be really clear. The problem is not the loss of focus. The problem is the meaning that gets piled on top of it. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And if you take that away where you’re like, oh, it means nothing, then there’s no problem. Right? Yeah. Like, if your partner brings your attention back and then you start to have thoughts, like, they’re mad at me, they’re going to think xyz. They probably think that I’m like, think of someone else. Whatever the judgment and the shame and the guilt and all that comes, then there’s, like, so much to be solved in that moment that is not going to lead to the experience being a good one, rather than just being like, oh, of course I lost focus. I have adhd. That’s literally like, the foundation of my disorders. I’m going to lose focus. No problem. I’m just gonna bring it right back. Well, and it kind of comes back to where we, you know, kind of a thing we had said before, which is actually ask, Right. You know, like, especially if it’s your partner who’s getting distracted. Right. Because I think it’s easier to pour insecurity into that is, you know, so to ask, like, you know, you seem to be getting, you know, distracted. Is there anything about what I’m doing? You know, so unless they’re like, well, honey, here’s the problem. You’re not hot enough and good Enough at sex. That’s why I get distracted. Right. If they actually say that, then. Okay, your insecurities. Nailed it. Like, yep, read that. Right. In the absence of those words passing their lips, don’t make the assumption. Actually find out. Hmm. That is huge. So it really just. So much of this all goes back to the communication. Yeah. Which is why, I guess, like, what happens before for dark is what will totally affect what happens after dark. Like your ability to communicate, your ability to be vulnerable, your ability to ask hard questions and hold space for the answer. Like, all of that. Yeah, well, and it also comes back around the other way that having those good, good enough sexual experiences with your partner spills forward by having, you know, more positive feelings between you. A shared experience, you know, and also, by the way, if you have any sense at all, if you’re hoping, I’m going to be blunt, if you want to get laid tonight, I don’t know, maybe be actually a little bit more nice, a little bit more helpful. Let a couple things go by. Right. So, like, you know, so that it then spills forward as well, in that, you know, to not feel like it has to be perfect. Perfect in order to be able to do that, because then you lose out on the positive benefit of those sexual connections and, you know, to sort of come back to the start here of you being all about Philly sports, you know, mixed blessing as that may be. Right. And, like, I don’t care about sports. Right. Like, so if we were dating, which we’re not. Right. But if we were, I don’t know, like, I think it would be a reasonable expectation on your part. Part that, like, you know what? Sometimes I want to watch a Phillies game, and I kind of like you to be there. So if you could sit there and, by the way, not be surly about it and not be, like, checked out on your phone and not make me feel guilty about asking for it. Right. Like, those are all totally reasonable requests. Like, here’s a thing I like, I’m asking you to be a part of it because this is important. I would like you to be there. That’s a fair request to make so we can both enjoy the game, even if we’re not enjoying the same parts about it in exactly the same way. You know, if one partner is interested in being sexual at that moment, the other one isn’t. Like, there is a place in relationships and in sex for generosity. Now, maybe we don’t do the full production. Maybe there’s some other things we can do in that moment, but Especially for couples who, you know, where there is that bigger difference between desired frequencies. Right. So how can I be involved in your experience if you’re the one who’s more interested in this moment? You know, So I feel like I’m being generous, but I feel like it’s freely given. I feel like I can say no. You feel appreciative of my showing up for the Phillies game or whatever it is. Right. And. And then it’s a good thing that we both feel good about ourselves and each other afterwards. That’s such a beautiful ending place. Because I think a lot of times, just because we are human, we are so self absorbed. Maybe speak for myself, but like, the thought of being generous just in general, but then also, like with our partner, when it comes to sex, I think is really, really important. And also it. We don’t want to do it for selfish reasons. But like, it, like you said, it spills forward into relationship. Like the connection points are important. And finding ways to be generous, I just think that’s really beautiful. And then that really does take so much pressure off. Like, maybe that is one of the antidotes to pressure is generosity. Like, I’m just going to show up, I’m just going to be generous. B minus work. Let’s just like, let’s just see what happens kind of situation rather than like, has to be perfect. I have to get it right. You know, XYZ has to happen in order for it to be enjoyable. Like, like taking that out and just putting generosity in, in its place. Generosity to self, generosity to partner. I think that would just be. Let’s just do that instead. That just sounds great. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because then it’s sort of. Then it feels like a win, right? And you know, and it may be where you’re like, look, okay, I’m up for the whole production. Or I’m willing to be convinced. Or maybe it’s like, look, here. Here’s all I got. Here. Here’s what I’m willing to give, right? It’s kind of like, all right, you want breakfast in bed? I’ll make you toast. Like, toast, I got toast. That, that’s, that’s it. Like, you’re not getting like the frittata with the chopped chives on top, right? Like, you’re getting toast. Maybe some butter, right? Like, but that’s fine, right? Like, it’s like, okay, yeah, I. Okay, I could go for toast. Or like, you know what, let’s see what tomorrow brings. I’m going to hold off. Thanks on the toast. Appreciate the offer. Not, you know, like, let’s see, so, but it’s about being direct about what you’re asking for. It’s about being direct in your response and, I don’t know, trying to stay on the same team. Right. Be good to each other. Be good to yourself. Make this a thing that connects you rather than drives you apart. So beautiful. Thank you so much for your time for being here with us today. I know I am going to get so much feedback on this episode. It will be so helpful and useful to my listeners. So I really appreciate your time. Dr. Tyler, thank you. My pleasure. I’m really glad that we finally connected here. If you’re being treated for your adhd, but you still don’t feel like you’re reaching your potential, you’ve got to join Focused. It’s my monthly coaching membership where I teach you how to tame your wild thoughts and create the life that you’ve always wanted. No matter what season of life you’re in or where you are in the world, Focused is for you. All materials and call recordings are stored in the site for you to access at your convenience. Go to ihaveadhd. Com Focused for all the info.
