Kristen Carder 0:05
Foreign Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast, where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults. With ADHD, I’m your host, Kristen Carter and I have ADHD, let’s chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting, relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Christine Carter, and you’ve tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. I am joined today by my friend Ari Tuchman. I am so looking forward to this conversation and to you hearing about the work that Ari is doing and his brand new book. Let me tell you a little bit about him. First of all, he likes to make fun of reading Pennsylvania. So that’s an interesting tidbit.

Ari Tuckman 1:04
Starting strong.

Kristen Carder 1:06
We’re starting off real strong on the podcast. Ari is a psychologist, an author, an international presenter and an ADHD thought leader. He actually wrote one of the first books that I read on ADHD called more attention, less deficit, and now Kristen Carter, 10 years ago. Ish, when did that book come out? Yeah, 10 ish, years ago, learning about ADHD really not even looking for myself, but to help the students that I was working with who had ADHD and just uncovering so much about myself and about the way that my brain works, and so to be able to sit across from you and to call you friend is just absolutely such a privilege. I’m so so pleased to welcome Dr Ari Tuckman, Ari, thanks so much for being here, and congrats on your new book. Thanks. Tell us about it. Yeah.

Ari Tuckman 2:04
So it’s the ADHD productivity manual, and it is all about getting things done and all the things that can get in the way of getting things done. So that is what it’s about. I’ve been seeing clients with ADHD for 25 years. Like this is a thing I talk about all day long, and this book is everything I’ve learned in 25 years, just poured it all into this one place that is all about getting things done

Kristen Carder 2:32
That’s so good, and I cannot believe I’m saying this, but I had the immense privilege of reading an advanced copy, and it is

Ari Tuckman 2:40
good and giving feedback and making it better. I might add,

Kristen Carder 2:44
thank you for that, that I can’t believe that I got to do that, and I think I even said to you via email like my 10 years ago, me would not believe that we’re having this conversation right now, but it is really, really good. I’ve said it many times that I really don’t trust neurotypicals with the ADHD brain, and you really are the exception to that rule. And I just love your approach, your humor and positivity. There’s no shame or unrealistic expectation. And in a book about productivity for the ADHD brain that’s so important, because we just feel so much shame around, you know, our lack of productivity or the inconsistency. So, yeah, I’m so looking forward to it. So it just came out at the beginning of May. It did. It did. So it’s available every everywhere, and while you are listening to this podcast, go find it and go buy it. So today, what we’re going to be discussing is how other people’s expectations influence our productivity and like, why that’s so freaking hard. Yeah, so why? Like help us? Because, as an ADHD er, I find, like, the ADHD experience is really often others centered like I want to make other people happy with me. Yeah, so I want to be productive on behalf of my spouse. I want to be productive on behalf of my company. I want to be productive so that my kids will think that I’m competent. That’s not a really easy way to live.

Ari Tuckman 4:15
No that’s kind of a terrible way to live, because you’re always behind, right? You’re always catching up, and you’re always pinning how you feel about yourself on how other people feel about you. That’s it.

Kristen Carder 4:28
If other people are happy with me, then I can feel satisfied and I can feel at peace. But if I’m not crossing X amount of things off of my list and someone else is disappointed with me, then I don’t get to feel peaceful, restful, calm. I have to continue to hustle for my worthiness, as Brene Brown says, yeah.

Ari Tuckman 4:48
And the problem with pinning your happiness to other people’s opinions is how other people feel about you is only partially determined by what you did, right? Because it’s also what are their. Expectations, and not just what got done, but also maybe how it got done, where, when, you know, like, all this other stuff, or maybe they’re just having a bad day, right? There’s that too. So, you know, it puts you in this position where something really important to you, how you feel about yourself is kind of hanging out there in the wind, and you’re crossing your fingers, hoping other people are going to sort of get it, that they’re going to understand it, that they’re going to sometimes, you know, cut you some slack or be compassionate, but also you want to be challenged and respected. So it’s like there’s a big, messy balancing act going on there,

Kristen Carder 5:39
and then it changes depending on the person, depending on the day. So it’s like, it’s not consistent across all people, like, I have to perform in this way for this person, in this way for this person. And it’s just like, it’s so confusing. Yeah. Do you think that this is I struggle to not always relate it back to childhood. But do you think that it is like, Are there attachment wounds? Are there, or is there relational wounding, for an ADHD er, that makes us more prevalent to this type of behavior?

Ari Tuckman 6:13
I mean, I think there is, you know, in the sense that if you tend to be off task more often, meaning, as a kid, you’re not doing the thing that whatever supervising adult thinks you should be doing, right? Could be a parent, could be a teacher, could be the soccer coach, right? They’re gonna have things to say, right? You will get more corrections than the other kids on the soccer team. And you know, as parents or as teachers or coaches, right, hopefully we’re like, calm and keeping our head on, but like, we have bad days also, and eventually some kid just makes us nuts, right? Like, you have just tested my limits and I don’t got amount of good responses. Here come the bad ones, right? So kids with ADHD, especially if they’re more hyperactive, impulsive, get a lot more of those sort of, let’s just say the worst of the adult rather than the best of that adult. So like, how do you not internalize that?

Kristen Carder 7:08
Yeah, it’s so interesting, like to explore the ADHD experience and understand that, like, we are not existing in a vacuum. We’re not just, like, here with without all of the last four or five, six decades kind of building up to, like, make us who we are today. And so it’s just, it feels complicated to me. It feels messy.

Ari Tuckman 7:31
It absolutely is. But, you know, there is also this sort of thing that can happen. There’s this sort of like, change in trajectory that happens, like at that moment of diagnosis, right? Because all of a sudden you have, like, a whole different explanation for the same thing that’s been happening for you know, decades and maybe decades and decades and decades and like, Your behavior is not different, your past is not different, but how you understand it is very different, right? It’s not lack of character response, lack of responsibility, not caring enough, being selfish, right? All those other negative explanations and interpretations now you have a different way of understanding it, and if you understand it differently, then maybe you do something different with it, right? Like so medication and ADHD friendly strategies and things like that. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel because other people came before you. But even separate from what you do is just how you sort of understand it, how you think about it, how you feel about it, how you understand yourself, but maybe also eventually, not on day one, maybe also eventually, you sort of understand the adults in your life, so your parents or your teachers, and recognizing, like, oh, wait, they had their struggles. Also, like, it doesn’t excuse bad behavior, but like, we can get it a little more, yeah,

Kristen Carder 8:57
and understanding, especially, like, if you are a parent, how you’ve inadvertently, like, trained into your own kids, like, okay, I get it. I get it. Yeah, I think that that’s such a good point. So you write that productivity is deeply social, and that strikes such a chord with me, yeah, because we’re, like, I said, not existing in a vacuum. And most of us are not just like, crunching numbers and like in our own little bubbles. It’s like, how we are, how we are or are not productive totally affects our social standing, yeah, our job, the way that people interact with us and feel about us. How does something, for example, like how something should be done, affect someone with ADHD, let’s say at work or at home?

Ari Tuckman 9:55
Yeah. I mean, the thing of it is we live and work and interact with other. People, and what each of us does indeed has a tangible effect on others, right? If I say, I’ll load the dishwasher and I don’t do it, we still have dirty dishes, and people generally still want clean plates to eat off of, you know, as it turns out, so like people do have thoughts and feelings about it. And you know, if it sort of happens within that sort of normal limits, that expectable amount, people are just like, Ah, all right. But if you become known as someone who too often isn’t doing the thing right, or you’re always getting your stuff for the you know, weekly meeting at the very last minute, or your coworkers are waiting and whatever you missed the detail or something, it does affect them, and they then begin to have ideas about who you are as a person. It’s not just the one thing. It’s like, No, this is always you, or this is too often you, and this is telling me about your character and who you are, not just this one thing that you did or didn’t do.

Kristen Carder 11:02
It’s just, it’s like, how not remembering to load the dishwasher can make a spouse feel like, Do you even love me? You know? Like, right? Does he even care about me? You know? And it’s like, whoa. We’re that’s a big my husband would be like, that’s like, such a big leap, right? But that’s what our brains do, right? Our brains are meaning makers. They make meaning out of situations. So he actually, my husband, is the one who loads the dishwasher. So this is, like, a terrible example, but let’s just say I asked him to load the dishwasher. Yeah, okay, sure. He doesn’t load it. Okay? Now, he doesn’t listen, he doesn’t love me, he doesn’t care about the family, like, I can just go ahead and make so much meaning out of that,

Ari Tuckman 11:47
or even, let’s make this even more subtle, right? He’s supposed to load the dishwasher, and he didn’t do it, right? And then you guys, like, you walk into the kitchen, and then he realizes, uh Oh, didn’t. All you have to do is blink and he’s like, she’s pissed at me. Yeah, I would come on down right? And you’re like, say what we’re fighting about, you know, I was just about to do it right? And it’s like, anything I just got here. So, like, you know, when it’s the people we’re closest to, we’re, like, highly attuned to that stuff. So things can blow up really quick over very little things, because, of course, it’s not the only the dishwasher. It’s not like, Hello, nice to meet you. I’ve never met you before, right? Like, there’s all this history that kind of pours into that moment, and it does then affect what happens next, but it creates these self fulfilling prophecies.

Kristen Carder 12:40
I just feel like there’s so much relief in just the understanding that productivity is social. Because I think that for some of us, ADHD ers, maybe, maybe those who feel like they’re just starting this journey, they’re kind of like on the lower functioning end right now, and just being like, I don’t know why people care so much, right? Like, why does it matter so much? And so there’s this layer of like, I just don’t get it. And so if we can kind of open that window to like, why it matters and and the social component of your productivity, or lack of productivity, that can be a big relief. I think,

Ari Tuckman 13:18
I think it can. And I think that, you know, maybe, like many things, kind of, I think the not necessarily the truth, lies in the middle, but that the better place is somewhere in between. In this sense, that, on the one hand, it’s reasonable for other people to expect you to get certain things done, particularly when it affects them, right? Like that’s a reasonable thing. We live with other people. We depend on other people, right? Like we should have expectations of people, versus at the other end of the spectrum is kind of this thing of like, I gotta kill myself to get everything done, and I can’t ever let other people down, because I already do it too much, and I can’t take time for myself, right? So it’s not this, like nobody should expect anything of me at one end versus, you know, I exist to serve others at the other end. It’s sort of something in between. I’m curious

Kristen Carder 14:09
if you see your clients like the pendulum swinging between the two and struggling with that middle ground. Yeah.

Ari Tuckman 14:16
I mean, it absolutely can, you know, like it absolutely can, because, of course, the problem with extremes is they tend not to be sustainable. Yeah? Like, it doesn’t really work. Somehow or other, something breaks, and then, you know, you kind of swing the other way. So, like, the person who’s taking on too much gets to a point where they’re just, they’re flooded, they’re done, and they’re just like, screw this. I can’t do anything. Yeah. And then they disappear for four days and nothing

Kristen Carder 14:43
happens 100% so let’s talk a little bit about people pleasing and productivity. Oh, oh, I just it’s, it’s, how do we know the. Line between, maybe we could call it like productivity that’s aligned, and productivity that is people pleasing, yeah, yeah, you solve that mystery for us. Ready

Ari Tuckman 15:15
and go so it like there, it’s subtle, right? Like, there’s not, like, a definitive, you can’t get out a ruler and measure

Kristen Carder 15:25
it, but I have ADHD, so I want black and white, and I want the rules. If

Ari Tuckman 15:30
it’s annoying, then it’s people, please. Okay, perfect. Yeah. Like, this is sort of where integrity comes in, right? That’s part of it. How do I want to be in this relationship, and not even necessarily like romantic, but just like yours a coworker, sure. Yeah. So some of it is about integrity. How do I want to show up in the world, in this relationship, you know? How do I feel about what I’m doing, right? So some of it is that Now granted, sometimes we do give more, right? Like, there’s something about this situation, I’m gonna give more, right? You’re my boss, I’m gonna give you a bit more. Or you’re a coworker, and you’re kind of a pain, but if I give you what you want, I don’t have to deal with you. So that’s good for me. Like, I’ll do it, or I don’t know, I’m angling for a promotion. So it’s worth it to sort of keep showing up and give a little extra fine. I think where it begins to bleed into people pleasing is, am I doing too much, or am I doing it kind of for the wrong reasons? Right? Not. This is important. I could see this as a good thing to do, but too much for I don’t want you to be unhappy with me right now. In general, you don’t right, like being a jerk in the workplace or wherever. It’s probably not helpful to you. But like, at what point is it a thing where you’re taking on too much responsibility and the other person isn’t taking on enough, right? That sometimes you can say, Sorry, man, not going to get that to you or not by Monday, maybe Wednesday. I’ll see what I can do, right? That like you do have that right to say that, right? So the people pleasing is when you feel like you can’t and you’re killing yourself to try to meet the other person’s expectations.

Kristen Carder 17:23
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Ari Tuckman 19:30
I’m scared. Yeah, exactly. So instead

Kristen Carder 19:32
of like, Oh, I see, I see how it would benefit them and benefit me to like, for me to work a little harder, for me to get this done, for me to serve here more, just like I love this person, I want to help them, but when I’m coming from a place of fear, I’m afraid of what they’re going to think. I’m afraid of how I’m going to feel based on what they like if they get mad at me. I don’t know how to handle that. Like fear is a big driver for my own people pleasing, and I

Ari Tuckman 19:58
think that’s exactly it like. I think that you’re actually you’re hitting the bullseye on this right? Because it’s you’re feeling fearful about the other person’s response, right now, okay, granted, some people frankly, behave rather badly, and maybe fear is the right thing, but also maybe we need to reevaluate what we’re doing here, if that’s the case. But the thing about the fear is it’s taking on too much responsibility for the other how the other person feels, right? They’re kind of aggressive and nasty when they’re disappointed. I don’t like being on the receiving end of it, so now I have to make sure they’re not disappointed, right? Like, but where are they in this, right? Where are they? To manage their disappointment, to manage our expectations in the first place, to feel disappointed and also act like an adult in the workplace, right, like you’re working too hard for that other person. So true.

Kristen Carder 20:56
Okay, so this is a perfect segue to talk a little bit about relationships. I know relationships are, like, really important to you and the work that you do. And what I found is that a lot of times when, when people find me and my work, they they feel like they are kind of like waking up in the relationships, so like they’re, you know, they’ve just been like, living, living, living, living, living, living living. They get married, have some kids, whatever the story is, or just like, connected to their families, or whatever, get a diagnosis, treated with ADHD, start to do a little self development work, and wake up and kind of look around and they’re like, does anyone like me do any of just, does my spouse like me, or does my spouse only like me when I am like performing at a certain level? And I think so many of my clients, at least their story is I feel like I’m only accepted when I’m performing at a certain level, meaning productive at a certain level. Can you help please? Yeah, that’s a

Ari Tuckman 22:09
real thing, right? Because it, it can be a profound change, right? To realize, like, oh, wait, I thought he I was like this, but it turns out, I’m actually like that, right? It wasn’t those reasons. It’s this ADHD reason like that is a big deal in how you understand yourself. Has that not show up in how you think about yourself in relation to other people, what you expect of them, what you allow people to expect of you, how you sort of understand the things that happen. Like, of course it does. It’s not like, you’ve decided I think I’m gonna wear less plaid, right? Like, maybe that isn’t that transformative to your relationships, but, like, this is a big deal, right? So, of course there’s a shift there. And I would like to think that this is one of those examples of a good relationship pushes you to become a better person, right? That you become better by, I don’t know, maybe being more assertive in some ways, in good assertive ways, being more assertive tolerant and accepting and more generous in other ways, and equally, you’re pushing your spouse or your kids or your family or whoever, to also kind of adapt and become better people in their own ways. Yeah? Well, that’s hard. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 23:30
that’s really hard, and not everyone is willing to participate, right? And that, I think, is the scary part, is that you don’t really know if your person, whether it’s a friend or a partner, you don’t really or a parent. You don’t really know if they’re going to be willing to participate in the new

Ari Tuckman 23:47
Yeah, yeah. And that’s really not uncommon, right? That like, because the thing of it is, they have a certain way of being in this relationship, and I guess it works, I don’t know, or at least, is comfortable for them. It’s familiar. I know the deal, sure, right? So it becomes then, like you’re asking a lot of them in a way, right? Because you’re changing, and you know, the gears will grind if they don’t change equally. I mean, it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of like the, I don’t know, like the sort of apocryphal story, or whatever. Of like someone stops drinking, and then their spouse doesn’t change, right? They keep doing this stuff, right? And it’s like, now everybody else needs to or if someone comes out of the closet, and then now their family is like, Oh, wait. How do we do like, Wait, do we tell Grandma? What are we doing? Yeah, like, do we tell the neighbors? Which neighbors do we tell? Like, do I wait is, can I tell people? Or is this your information, right? Like, things change and but I mean, that’s life, like life changes. So it’s not. Like a unique thing, but it doesn’t mean that the other people aren’t going to have their own struggles with it. So on the one hand, yeah, kind of push and encourage and say this is important to me. I’m asking you to be aware of it, but also to sort of recognize their struggles, and don’t ask them to change quicker than they can. That’s

Kristen Carder 25:18
so important, because I saw this in my own marriage. So I’ve been married 20 years. I know I always feel weird saying that, because it really does put me at middle age, doesn’t it? I just don’t consent to that kind of language. But here we are, and there was a period of time when I was on this, like ADHD discovery first, and then, like a self development journey after, where my husband really felt like you’re changing the terms, you’re rewriting the terms of our relationship, yeah. And that was hard for him. He was kind of like, this is not what I this was not our original agreement. Yeah. Like, this is not where we started. And

Ari Tuckman 26:05
were you like, Dude, we were 20 I know. And exactly

Kristen Carder 26:08
that, I know I was like a tiny baby when I got married 23 that’s little, that’s little. Like,

Ari Tuckman 26:15
what do you know at 23 you had zero kids, zero mortgages, zero anything. My

Kristen Carder 26:20
brain was far from fully developed. Yeah, I can tell you, yeah, far from it. And at one point he said, You’re not the same person that I married. And I said, Thank God, like, I’m so glad. And he didn’t

Ari Tuckman 26:36
love that you’re not going to frat parties, right? Exactly, right. He

Kristen Carder 26:39
didn’t love that response. But I think it got to the point where it was just like kind of normalizing the the evolvement of humanity, yeah, and I just wonder if we need to do that more for each other in our relationships, like it’s normal to change, it’s normal to grow, it’s normal to be different now than you were five or 10 years ago. Yeah, it would be weird not to be, but so many people aren’t. And I think that’s the point, yes or no, yeah.

Ari Tuckman 27:07
I mean, I think what I would say to this is great. This is like, best case scenario, right? Yeah, that he says this thing, hey, this is not the relationship I signed up for. You’re different, right? Right? In that best case is you can recognize, okay, wait a second, this is not about me. Yeah, I’m okay. We’re okay. He’s okay. He’s struggling a little right now. Like, honey, what do you mean? How? So, yeah, how is that affecting you? What is your concern about not just where we are today, but where will we be another 20 years from now, right? Like, you know, what is it about it that makes him uncomfortable, and to be able to hear it and not take it personally, and I say this slightly tongue in cheek, but also, don’t take it seriously, in the sense of, if he’s like, I’m worried you’re gonna leave me to then not be like, right? What do you mean? I’m so offender. Oh, could you Right? Right? It’s just like, oh, okay, you know, legit,

Kristen Carder 28:02
yeah, that’s that makes sense and, and I think that for us, this was a while ago, years ago, but for us, it did take just me, like, really reassuring him, like, I don’t I, like, what are you worried that I’m going to become, and then reassuring, like, oh, I don’t want to be that. Don’t worry. I’m not going to be that. And like, what are you worried about our and just like, lots of reassurance there. Well, it

Ari Tuckman 28:29
is. It’s asking those questions, right? Rather than because, of course, the temptation with our spouse especially is to jump in immediately, like, you know, and to say, that’s not it, or this is there, or whatever, or how could you right? So instead to like, ask the question, like, what are you worried I’m going to become Yeah, and sometimes the answer is, honey, no. Like, don’t that is not Yeah. But also sometimes the answer is, well, yeah. Like, that kind of is where I’m going. But let’s also talk about, what do you think that looks like? Because it might not be the thing I think it looks like, right? Yeah, so, but also maybe it is, and, you know, like, is, you know, will this be a change for you? Of course, it is. But can you do it? I don’t know. I think you can. Or, how do we do this, right? It’s sort of like, you know, when you have zero kids, and then you have one, right? And then at some point, when, you know, maybe if you’re done having kids, then like, I think I’m going back to work, or we’re gonna do this, or, like, just these other normal sort of, like, developmental changes in the family life, you know, like, there’s kids not at home because now they’re at school, or last kid leaves the house, and it’s like all these big changes that happen.

Kristen Carder 29:44
That’s so true. I think that in terms of productivity, if we begin as people with ADHD to like, really honor our capacity and like, not people please around productivity and like, allow. Our homes to be safe places for ourselves. Sometimes our partners or our kids can be like, Wow, the house is like, you’re so much less productive. And it’s like, well, yeah, because I’m not trying to perform for you anymore, you know. And I think then it’s like, well, how far is this gonna go? How messy is it gonna get right, you know? And I think those are fair conversations,

Ari Tuckman 30:23
absolutely. And I mean, it might be, I’m actually more productive, but not on the things you’re seeing that matter to you, right? But like, but I do think there is a discussion there of, well, let’s talk about this, right? What are we doing here? What do we each want in terms of, I don’t know how clean the house is, or how dinners are handled, or bedtimes or whatever, right, like people have, couples have to have these conversations from time to time, and actually have the conversation, and not just like battle over it, you know, every night or whatever, Right?

Kristen Carder 30:59
There was one. This is just like a stupid example, but I wonder if it might be helpful to visualize or to illustrate the point. Sometimes there’s productivity that like we want to happen, that we know needs to happen, but one partner expects it like it’s expected, that the one person will do it, and then they stop consenting to do it anymore. I’m just speaking hypothetically. I’m not talking about my own life, right? And so then it’s like, well, how do we solve this problem? Like, can do we have the money to hire this out? Because I don’t really consent to be the one that you’re relying on for this anymore, when we moved a couple years ago, I told Greg, I was like, I don’t have the capacity to pack. Like I was in like, a big work that I was, I don’t I don’t have it. I don’t have the capacity to pack. And I found a moving company that would pack for whatever a couple 100 bucks. And I was like, we could do this, or you can pack, yeah, but I’m not compact. There are other options. There’s other options. Like, I can’t be involved in that. I’m overwhelmed. I’ve got a ton going on at work, and I will just like, implode if I also have to add on packing. So I’m out with this. But like, I support us hiring it out, but I’m not going to be involved in it. Yeah, but what would you say to a client that said that?

Ari Tuckman 32:27
But what I would say is this is good, because what it shows is you’re self aware enough to know this is not going to be good. If I have to pack bad things will happen. Either I’ll set fire to everything in the driveway, just burn it all up, yeah? Or I will resent you and want to strangle you in your sleep for making me do it, even though you didn’t make me. But I didn’t ask, but I knew I couldn’t ask, right? Just this seething silence, yeah, so like so to just bring it up, hopefully, yeah, not the day before you gotta, you know, move right? So to bring it up and to say, like, I don’t feel like this is working, like we need to talk about some alternatives, and maybe at the end of the day there aren’t alternatives. And, like, you know, we still got to do it, but at least you talked about it, right? Worst case, but maybe there are some other options, right? There’s ways of sort of changing. Like, well, what? What can we do here? And to try to, like, this is definitely a couples therapy thing, but, like, Don’t jump too quick to solutions, right? Like, Let’s better understand the problem. What is it about the packing that’s so hard? Is it just literally the time? Is it emotionally, it’s too overwhelming. Is it it’s too hard to decide what to keep and what to get rid of? Is it, you know, I don’t know, your kids are fighting you on getting rid of their old stuff. Is it like, what exactly is the problem? Because if you don’t really know their problem, you’re going to come up with solutions that are probably only half good. Yeah. And what’s

Kristen Carder 34:01
interesting is, then there’s so much more understanding about the ADHD experience and the person, the person struggles, because it’s just, I mean, my husband is so neurotypical, right? So he’s just like, we just decide to do it, and we do it. It’s like, it’s very it’s very simple, and it’s very clear.

Ari Tuckman 34:17
Write it on a list, and then it’s not off in

Kristen Carder 34:20
order, yeah, and it’s it does not drain him like then he’s fine. Then he just goes about his life, and he doesn’t hung over the next day, right? But then there’s more understanding in that. So okay, so what happens when a friend or a boss or a partner expects more than an ADHD er can consistently give I feel like we’ve kind of answered this, but like, what if Greg was like, well, it’s unacceptable. Like you, you’re gonna pack and I’m like, I’m gonna do it like you have to. Yeah. Like, what do we do? What do you recommend when someone in their life is like. Like expecting more than they can reasonably deliver? Yeah,

Ari Tuckman 35:04
so there’s a lot of different answers to this. I mean, part of it is ideally without needing a time machine, right? Some things would’ve happened earlier, or some conversations would’ve happened earlier, right? Because it, I don’t know, I kind of got this line disappoint early right again, like, not the night before the moving trucks show up, yes, but like, a week or a month or whatever. Like, we need to talk about this or what is leading up to that moment. So I don’t know if you were doing some work thing. You’re spending a lot of time on it. And Greg was like, Dude, why are you doing like, really? Like, do we have time like, we’re moving? Why are you doing this? Right? He’s going to be much less receptive if there wasn’t a discussion and agreement about what’s happening, right? So, so some of it is, there’s earlier points of intervention, but I think that there’s a, there comes a point where ADHD, or not, it’s just like, I, I I am not going to be able to do this like this will not end well. We got to do something different here, right? And feeling like you can be honest and assertive about it, and to sort of bring it up and make it a joint discussion, right? Because it’s not just you will be disappointed. It’s also like the other person is going to be dislike the thing you’re hoping for is not going to happen. Like, we’re all out of that today, so we need to have a serious conversation about what really, really can happen here and that whole thing. Of, like, Yeah, but you should just be able to do it. Whether I should or shouldn’t, I can’t. So like, let’s kind of take that as a given, and like, now what’s our next best option? Okay,

Kristen Carder 36:39
so I feel like that is such good advice in the context of, like, an equal partnership. But what happens at work? How do we stop over promising and under delivering at work? Yeah, that 32nd sound bite that we can clip for Instagram, right?

Ari Tuckman 36:58
I think it’s a thing of it’s, again, it’s, I think, trying to do a better job and stuff earlier, right? And to really kind of show that you’re working hard, right? Because part of the problem is, if you’re not delivering people get this idea you’re not trying hard enough, and that is the weak link. Had you tried harder, this, all would have been fine, and you’re dead, like you are dead meat, if that’s their understanding of what happens. So showing people that you’re working hard, showing people that you’re saying, Hold on a sec. Let me write that down, or let me check my schedule and make sure I can do that. You know, Tuesday meeting, right? So part of it is that it’s managing the sort of social impressions of what you do and how you do it. It gives you more credibility than to say I really don’t think I’m going to be able to get you this by close of business Wednesday, like I just don’t think I can do it.

Kristen Carder 37:51
So it’s like building social capital in some ways.

Ari Tuckman 37:55
Absolutely, that’s exactly what it is.

Kristen Carder 37:59
Yeah. What’s so interesting from an ADHD ers experience is that we just want to pretend that, like, Sure, great, got it, yep, no problem. I’m gonna, I’m gonna get that, yeah, yep, I’m on it. And then we’re suffering in the background. And it’s really hard to be vulnerable and show like, hey, working on this, but it’s hard, and I found that even just sending an email of like, Hey, I’m currently working on this, just wanna let you know, or like, Hey, I’m currently working on this, it’s taking longer than I expected. So maybe a week before the deadline, like taking longer than expected, grinding it out. We’ll touch base at the end of the week and let you know if it’s going to be doable. Yeah,

Ari Tuckman 38:43
and that is exactly what we’re talking about, right? It’s sort of managing the expectations. It’s being transparent. It’s not letting the other person believe something that is not likely to work out. She’s got it. She’ll get it to me by Friday, right? You’re like, maybe not lying. I mean, it is a lie of omission. Yeah, right. Like, if I know you would want to know this, right? And then I didn’t say anything. Obviously, the first question you’re gonna ask is, well, wait a second, when did you know this wasn’t getting done, right? And unless I can say, Well, my laptop burst into flame 20 minutes ago, right? Like you’re gonna be mad at me, not just for the not doing it, but maybe more so for the not telling you that’s true. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 39:34
so many of us ADHD ers have that experience of like, the impending doom of having to tell the truth and knowing, like, I’ve waited too long,

Ari Tuckman 39:45
yeah, but it also becomes a thing of, like, you know, from that very first, hey, can you do this thing? Right? There’s this sort of people pleasing, of like, I don’t know, but I can’t say no, so I guess I have to say yes. But there’s also that, like, you. Um, I don’t know, I guess, right? And especially if, let’s say your schedule isn’t really that filled out, or your to do list isn’t really that complete, if you don’t really have some sort of a system to be able to look and you’re like, you talked about that plenty of time, yeah, yeah. So you know, like again, it’s not like this moment. This is where time begins. It’s like things that happened or didn’t happen before that moment that set up. What happens in this one?

Kristen Carder 40:32
It’s it feels complicated. It is,

Ari Tuckman 40:36
turns out, that’s why life is hard.

Kristen Carder 40:40
Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make a list, you cross things off the list in order, blah, blah, blah, like, yeah, we know what to do, but ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That’s why I created focused. It’s an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I’m a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019 I’ve coached over 4000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from Hot Mess express to grounded and thriving, I’ll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior and accept yourself, flaws and all. And with this foundation, we’ll build the skills to improve your life with ADHD. And not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you’re surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr Ned Hallowell says healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you’re an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life. Join hundreds of others from around the world in focused go to I have adhd.com/focused to learn more. That’s I have adhd.com/focused to check it out. In chapter 35 you talk about disappointing and disagreeing with grace. And my question is, what does that look like, especially for someone who’s afraid of this conflict, who’s afraid of letting someone down, who’s afraid of that conversation where it’s like I told you I would do it, turns out it’s not gonna happen. Yeah. How do we how do we navigate that?

Ari Tuckman 42:44
Nobody likes disappointing people, right? Like, if you have a conscience, you don’t like making people unhappy. So everybody’s gonna want to avoid or be tempted to avoid it. There’s the worry of how they’re gonna respond and, like, maybe it’s gonna go really badly, but it’s also sometimes it’s kind of, it’s unavoidable, right? It is just a thing that’s going to happen, and either you tell them I don’t think I can do this, or your actions will tell like, eventually it comes to find out, yeah, yeah. Like deadline arrives and you’re nowhere to be seen. So of course, the temptation is to delay it, right? Maybe some miracle happens, I’ll figure it out, or the motivation will appear, or something will get canceled, and I’ll have time, right? So there’s always that, like, ooh, fingers crossed. You know, maybe this is one of those. You know, there’s times when it works out. Hey, remember that one time where, right? Like, so there’s that kind of optimism there that can sort of justify, well, I’m not going to tell them yet, or they seemed a little bit annoyed, or like they have this big thing I can’t tell them now, and just kicking the can down the road, until then it gets worse, you know, because then it is the very last minute. So you just take the deep breath, you bite the bullet, and just say, I really wish I could. I’m sorry. I hope this doesn’t screw you up, right? So some acknowledgement, or is there anything I can do? Can I make it up to you? Is there some other thing or I can’t do the full thing? Is there a smaller thing I could do? Is there some other way we could work this, right? So maybe there’s some sort of collaborative effort, but, you know, acknowledging the impact, and then they gotta figure out how to be okay with it. You know,

Kristen Carder 44:32
I think there’s a couple things here. First, remembering your humanity. I think that we really struggle with that. We want to live in a fantasy world, and we have this ideal where it’s like, well, the neurotypicals do it all right, all the time. And the reason why I’m disappointing this person is because there’s something wrong with me, or I have ADHD. Like, sometimes your ADHD. Really has nothing to do with it. It’s just like, this is just life, and this is just like human interactions, and this is just humanity. And I think like stepping out of the fantasy of like, if I were just a good person, then I could do it, or if I just like it, whatever I just I think we make these fantasies about how other people live and how other like Ari Tuchman never disappoints anybody, right? He’s got his shit together, and he’s always on the ball and did it like, but because I have ADHD, like, that’s why, and sometimes just, like, no, like, life happens and you’re a human and, like, keeping up with work and life and and kids or whatever you have going, like, dogs, I don’t know, like, it’s hard, it’s hard for everybody, yeah,

Ari Tuckman 45:43
and that’s it. I think it’s a really important point, right? Because sometimes it’s not about ADHD. And I’ve actually added to my when I present on couples, I’ve added a slide where I say ADHD and, like, have a column on one side and not ADHD of a column on the other side, right? Right? No, they’re different because it’s sort of like, if you didn’t do the thing right, ADHD stuff is like, forgot, procrastinated, got distracted, not ADHD. Something else came up, changed their mind, didn’t want to actually do it right? Like, that’s not ADHD stuff. But if you have too many of these things, right, then everything is like, Oh, well, there’s your ADHD again. It’s like, No, I just didn’t want to do it. Like, I changed my mind. Like I big meeting came up at work, didn’t have time, had to do the thing. Or, you know, kid fell down and whacked their head and like that, took over, right, right? So, so ADHD becomes a sort of, like, if there’s ever a problem, it’s got to be you sort of a thing. But that’s obviously, that’s not always true. That is

Kristen Carder 46:45
so true, because when life happens and I have to cancel or reschedule something, I have this internal monolog of, you’re so inconsistent, you’re not reliable, you’re ADHD blah blah, blah, blah, blah, and and I now, you know, 20 something years after my ADHD diagnosis, have the wherewithal to be like, No, this is just life, yeah, right, but, but that inner monolog is still

Ari Tuckman 47:10
there, and that’s quick, right? That bam, oh, right, immediately, yeah,

Kristen Carder 47:16
I was sick with the flu a couple weeks ago, and I had to cancel, like, reschedule, a couple work calls, and I was so ashamed I had the flu, like I was in I could not get out of my bed, and I was feeling shame, as if this was a choice, as if I had dropped the ball as it and it’s just so fast that your brain does that.

Ari Tuckman 47:44
Yeah, yeah, no, that those automatic responses are really quick. So as nice as it is to say, try not to have those really quick automatic thoughts. I think the better advice is have better second thoughts. You know, like, notice it. And you’re like, Hold on a sec. Like, I’m doing that thing again. Like, that is that old stuff? Is this actually what’s going on here? So

Kristen Carder 48:07
good. That’s so good. Yeah, I’m in bed. I can’t get out. Yeah, that’s this is not a choice. And

Ari Tuckman 48:13
of course, if one of your girlfriends called you up and explained it to you, you would say, like, what? What is wrong with you? No, no, don’t feel bad about yourself. You got sick. That’s it, right? You would be so much nicer to your friend than you are to yourself in that moment, that

Kristen Carder 48:26
internalized guilt and that internalized shame, which sometimes comes up when we’re inconsistent and when we make poor choices because of our ADHD, and it sometimes comes up when just life happens and we’re just humans. What can you give us, like a mindset shift? I love how you said, don’t worry about those first thoughts. Have better second thoughts. So I think that’s really impactful. Is there anything else you can say to this, like in shifting, or in some sort of practice that can help us reclaim, like, our own internal world where it’s just like, I’m on the tunnel of the shame spiral, like, going this the slide down, down, down. How can I interrupt that and, like, hop into some reality, some more positive self talk. Some like, Hey, this is just, it’s okay, this is human. Or like, yeah, you dropped the ball, but we still have to have to deal with it. Yeah, yeah. How do we do that?

Ari Tuckman 49:25
I think there’s a lot of things you can do in terms of, like, sort of grounding, like present moment kind of stuff, like, get out of your head and a little bit more, sort of into your body and in the present moment, you know, sort of stuff, like, hold an ice cube, or, you know, box breathing, or take deep breaths. Or, like, you know, ground, your feet on the ground. Or, you know, look around like, what can I see? What do I hear? You know, what do I feel? So, a lot of stuff like that. But I think there’s also, if we rewind the tape in. Is kind of those, you know, we all do this to some extent. I kind of call it like, what are your favorite lies? Like, we all tell ourselves little lies, you know. So, like, the ADHD favorite lies are things like, I don’t have to write that down, or I’ll do that in a minute, or I can stay up a bit later. It’s fine, or I’ll just watch one video. Or, you know, like, so those things that kind of get you into trouble, and, like, you know, other people, for other reasons, have their favorite lies, and we all have our favorite lies, but it’s sort of like, those are the moments where we talk ourselves into trouble, right? We like to believe the thought of it, it’s probably not going to work out, except for that one time it did. So we’re like, Ooh, I’m feeling lucky. Unfortunately, feeling lucky and being lucky turned out not to be the same thing. So, you know, it’s like those moments of like, you know what? No, like, I really want to believe this, but it isn’t going to work, so I’m not going to let myself

Kristen Carder 50:59
how do we gain the consciousness to know what our favorite lies are? Like, I guess, like listener, even just like, right now, like, what are the things that you tell yourself, right? You listed some. I could definitely do that. I don’t have to write that down. I don’t need to check my calendar. Yeah, I plenty of time. I have plenty of time. This will

Ari Tuckman 51:24
only take a minute. I like that. Oh, yeah, nothing takes a minute. It’s never true, right? This will only take a minute. Yeah, I got tons of time. This is just take a minute. Yeah, the favorite lies are the things that bring you the most heartache, right? And it’s not just that, like, things don’t work out. It’s also that, like, feeling like crap about yourself and beating yourself up, right? It’s that situation that afterwards, you’re like, damn it, yeah, you know. So, like, that’s, that’s a thing to really be aware of,

Kristen Carder 51:55
and it, like, it consistently lowers your social capital. Would you say, yeah,

Ari Tuckman 51:59
yeah. I mean, absolutely it can, but even if somehow nobody else finds out, sure, you still know, right? It’s like, Why do I keep doing this? Am I right that? Like, self flagellation, you know? So like really being on the lookout for it, and being really aware of like, I need to not talk like this is where things start to go bad, right? Versus something happened and now I feel terrible. How do I feel less terrible? That is the worst place to try to do something

Kristen Carder 52:30
so good, so good. Okay, I love I really liked your book. I’m so glad you wrote it. I think it’s gonna be so helpful to the community. Truly, I just, I’m so glad that we have it now. And what I love, especially about it, is that you talk about productivity being a means to an end, not being productive, for productive, for productivity sake, or to, like, make yourself look good, or do whatever make people happy, but, like, the whole point is to live a life that you want to live. Yeah, can you say a little bit about that?

Ari Tuckman 53:08
And that was very much kind of a guiding principle, right? Especially, like, God, if you’re writing a productivity book, the assumption is you’re going to be all about, like, grinding it out and doing a million things. And that is totally, I mean, first of all, you’re going to scare off most people, but especially in ADHD audience. Like wrong tone, definitely. So like very much throughout the book, The tone was always it’s good to be productive, right? Getting more things done, sure, right? And especially if you struggle with productivity, if you beat yourself up about not being as productive. If you’ve had negative experience with others people about you not being productive, like, sure, we want to up your batting average. And also, there comes a point where sort of enough is enough, right? Where being more productive doesn’t give you enough bang back for the buck. Kind of thing in that being more productive is about getting done the things you need to get done, having the time and the energy and the sort of mental space to be able to do the things that are really the most important to you, yes, for you, for your family, for the people you care about, for your community, right? Like feeling effective, feeling like you’re having a positive impact on the

Kristen Carder 54:21
world. And it’s not just about avoiding the negative outcomes, right? It’s about accumulating more positive outcomes. That’s huge. That’s huge. Yeah, I loved how you talked about, like, getting the right things done, and maybe sometimes you just don’t want to do that thing, and that’s okay, yeah, that’s huge. That’s huge. So that, and that goes back to like, the people pleasing and the expectations like, so that you can do more that’s aligned for you and what you want your life to look like, right? So good, so good. What is the one message that you hope. Every listener is going to walk away with and, and I would just like, lump readers in there. Like, what are you wanting people to really walk away with, from, from your book and and owning, like, their own productivity style? Yeah, in the world, yeah.

Ari Tuckman 55:20
I think I’m gonna say two sides of the same coin, right? So on the one hand, productivity is hard, and the reason is there’s lots and lots of things that can affect your ability to get stuff done. I mean, I’ve got 36 chapters in the book. You have, I don’t know how many episodes you’ve done, 316 Right? Like you didn’t do, like six episodes. Well, that’s it. I’ve covered everything there is to know about living life with ADHD. So like, if you have struggled, it’s because there’s a lot of reasons that can impact your ability to get something done in any particular moment on any particular task. And also, here’s the other side of the coin, the better you understand what all those different things can be, the more places you have to look and to maybe do something a little bit different, right? So that’s kind of what the book is about. It’s kind of giving you all these ideas of things to look at and reasons why you’re struggling. Because those are the points of intervention. Those are the places to do some things a little differently, and sometimes a little bit better on this, and a little bit better on that, a little bit noise from that, and like, bam, you’re over the, you know, over the hump, and now the right things happen at the right times. So

Kristen Carder 56:36
good, so good. I just appreciate you being here so much so how can people find you? How can people find your book? Everybody go buy it, but tell us where. Tell us where we can find it. So

Ari Tuckman 56:47
best website is adult, ADHD book.com, and, you know, paperback, ebook, audiobook, all that stuff is is out, and just all the places, all

Kristen Carder 56:59
the places that’s awesome. Great. Well, I appreciate your contribution to the community truly, as a, as a an ADHD or myself who’s been learning from you for years, I’m really excited for everybody to get their hands on on this next gem so and thanks for being here. Hey, thanks

Ari Tuckman 57:16
for having me. It’s always fun to hang out with you.

Kristen Carder 57:20
Hey, ADH, dear. I see you. I know exactly what it’s like to feel lost, confused, frustrated, and like no one out there really understands the way that your brain works. That’s why I created focus. Focused is my monthly coaching program where I lead you through a step by step process of understanding yourself feeling better and creating the life that you know you’re meant for. You’ll study, be coached, grow and make amazing changes, alongside of other educated professional adults with ADHD from all over the world. Visit. Ihaveadhd.com/focused to learn more.