Kristen Carder 0:05
Kristen, welcome to the I have ADHD podcast, where it’s all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults. With ADHD, I’m your host, Kristen Carter and I have ADHD. Let’s chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting, relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder, I’ll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what’s up? This is Kristen Carter, and you’ve tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated. I am caffeinated, I am regulated, and I am ready to roll. I am thrilled there are angels singing in the background right now, because my heart is so full of joy. Today I am welcoming in person into the studio. Dr Tamara Rozier, she’s been on the podcast before. She’s a friend of the pod, and in that previous episode, we talked about her amazing book that has just set the ADHD community on fire, called your brain’s not broken. And today we’re here to talk about her brand new book. You Me and our ADHD family and I am delighted to be able to sit face to face with one of my ADHD heroes. Let me tell you a little bit about her, and then we’re going to get the conversation started. Tamara Rozier has been a college administrator, a professor, a leadership consultant, a high school teacher, a business consultant and an ADHD coach. If that doesn’t say ADHD, I don’t know what does she’s the founder of the ADHD center of West Michigan, where she and her staff of coaches, therapists and speech pathologists, work with individuals with ADHD and their families to help them to learn strategies, to develop new skills and live effectively with ADHD, and she’s here with us today to share her deep well of wisdom. Tamara, thank you so much for being here. It’s so great to have you.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:11
I am so glad to be here.

Kristen Carder 2:13
It’s so fun to meet you in person. So we’ve talked over zoom a couple times, yes, and every time I felt like, Oh, this is my bestie. I know Same here. Yeah, it’s so fun to just meet someone who is so ADHD, but also very heart centered right now, like very much ADHD, but also very connected to yourself and to other people. And so I just, it’s really fun to you know, I

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:39
don’t want to embarrass you, but this just shows how much we have in common. Okay, you know, I arrived at the studio and I’m just feeling car sick. I don’t know why. I just need to ask the Uber driver sit in the front, but I get here and I’m not feeling great, and you’re like, Yeah, girl, I’m glad I’m with you. And you’re saying, Hey, I’m really tired. I’ve been working a lot, and then you looked at me and said, Do I look normal to you? And that’s exactly what I wanted to say to you. Yes. What we want to say, am I pulling this off?

Kristen Carder 3:15
It’s a whole like, charade performance sometimes that I feel like I’m putting on, like, do I look normal? Because I am hella faking it. Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:22
I mean, I got here. I’m like, what, what normally do? I would do with my hands right now, am I? Do I look human? And, oh, good. And I think that’s my definition of ADHD. Just asking,

Kristen Carder 3:34
do I listen?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:35
Do I look normal?

Kristen Carder 3:36
Am I Normal? Doesn’t feel normal. I’m so interested to hear from you What compelled you to write this book. Because as I was reading it, I thought to myself several times, this woman’s been through it. She’s been through some stuff. Oh, yeah. And I mean that in the the most deep way, like I can just tell that you’ve done your work, thanks. So What compelled you to write this for for us? I’m gonna say for us, yeah, yeah, thanks.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 4:07
Well, first I love my ADHD peeps, right? And my heart is really heavy because I see my clients not have fulfilling relationships. I see families not having good relationships. And, you know, I talk a lot about my family of origin and then my children, and how I decided things have to be different, yeah, and so I really made an effort. I screwed up a lot, by the way. And the book is about what I learned on the on the way, yeah,

Kristen Carder 4:41
that’s so good, I agree. So I’ve had the privilege of supporting ADHD ers for like, five years, and in that time, having hundreds of conversations with people. Relationships are a topic that come up maybe the most often. In right, broken relationships or difficult relationships, and I think that it is such an important topic for all of us with ADHD. And I love the name of this chapter here, chapter two. Is it you me or ADHD? Yeah. How do we answer that question?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 5:21
Yeah. Well, first of all, I like the first chapters title better. Oh,

Kristen Carder 5:25
tell me, I don’t have that one memorized. That’s okay. I’m

Dr. Tamara Rosier 5:27
not quizzing you. Oh, it’s Welcome to the goat rodeo, because the goat rodeo is what it all feels like. Yeah, you know how we were joking, like, do I look normal right now? Yeah. Well, that’s if you have a whole family, and ad she’s highly hereditary. Yeah, right. You have a whole family, we’re all going, am I normal right now? And sometimes we’re not saying that in nice ways to each other, right? And so when we ask, is it you me or ADHD, we really have to look at, I don’t feel like I’m being myself right now. I don’t feel like I’m being who I want to be. And it’s really bugging me out, yeah? And I I’m sad about it, yeah? And then this is happening in families, and so we want to work with entire families to figure out, yes, this is an ADHD trait. Doesn’t mean we get to behave poorly, right? We need to own our stuff. The whole book is like, own your stuff and then, but yeah, figuring out whether it’s you me or it’s just this weird ADHD,

Kristen Carder 6:34
right? And then figuring out how to navigate through conflict and even just good times and joy. It’s like we experience the emotion so intensely, and we’re all good

Dr. Tamara Rosier 6:45
times. You said, Right? Even good times sometimes, like, I’m sure you’ve had this in your family, like you guys are looking forward to going to the beach or vacation or whatever, I’m already and this should be a great time, already sweating and everyone’s happy, yeah, and yet it goes off the rails, yep, yep.

Kristen Carder 7:04
And, like, unmet expectations, and this thing didn’t get checked off the list, and this kid is crying and, like, this one’s throwing up over here, and I’m mismanaging my emotions and total hot mask. There you go. My husband’s upset with me because it’s just like,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:20
Yeah, welcome to the Go rodeo.

Kristen Carder 7:24
That’s so good. As we get started, we’re gonna, we’re gonna do a deep dive. But would you just give us some encouragement off the bat? Like, is it possible for ADHD families to be healthy? Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:40
absolutely. Do

Kristen Carder 7:41
you see any that are healthy? Because, like, I’m looking around, like, where are we at? Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:47
You know, one of my daughters has always said, Mom, we put the fun in dysfunctional. And what that means is, we have a lot of fun as a family, and we love each other big. I mean, you don’t mess with one of the sisters, yeah, because they will all dog pile right there. We’re a tight knit family, not weird, like a cult tight knit. But like, you know, I’m glad you made that distinction. Well, actually, families can be too tight knit. We need individuality plus connected, yeah? And I talked about that later in the book. But for the most part, in my family, we try to express things in an open, healthy way. Do we fail? Oh yes, yeah, all the time, yeah. And so we need ways to repair. Yeah. I work with families, and I help them gain stronger skills, and then they start to work together better, and then they can really love each other better. One woman read the book. She is a 76 year old, and she was so excited reading my book. She’s like, I never read books. I’m reading this book. And Tamara This is working on the way over here, I was asking my husband questions about the baseball game he was interested in. I didn’t know I was supposed to ask questions about my husband’s stories. And he looked at her and said, Is that why you were so interested? And she said, Yeah, but it felt good, didn’t it? And he said, it did feel really good. So I know that’s just a tiny little thing that was a page out of the whole book. Sure, sure, but I’m hoping people will find something to go this is something I can do.

Kristen Carder 9:33
Yes, okay, so that makes me wonder, and I think about this a lot, why do we ADHD ers have to be taught the most basic stuff? Like, hey in relationships with somebody that you love, you might want to ask a question once in a while, like, why I feel like everyone else has the rulebook? Book they do, and we just were born without it, yeah? And so why is it that we have to be taught everything? Oh,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:09
that’s the most painful question you could ask, and that’s why, it’s why I wrote the book, yeah? Because in the book isn’t all basic guys, I promise no, but a lot of us with ADHD, we feel, even those of us who can kind of appear socially adept, we still feel like we’re on the outside looking it. Yes, and I don’t know if you felt it. I felt it all my life. I

Kristen Carder 10:37
still feel it. I still feel it when I look at you and say, am I normal? Do I look normal? Is this fine? Am I being weird? That

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:44
was my thought, Yeah. Am I? Am I is this am I pulling off a growth, a grown up, right now, right? Grown Woman should look good. What is happening? Yeah? So when, when you have ADHD and you know this, and your people will know this, but I’m going to say this anyway, our prefrontal cortex isn’t always online. Well, those are the things that would catch the prefrontal cortex should go, Hey, your daughter just asked you how her day is. Now, ask her how her day is, yeah, or because I just want to jump into my drama, because every day is a drama, right? And, oh, this happened. This happened, yeah. And I have one daughter who doesn’t have ADHD, and she’s the one who asks how I’m doing. And, you know, she’s taught me a lot about being neuro typical. I’ve watched her. Oh, here’s an example. Here’s the example of the shenanigans she does. She’s going away for the weekend. She’s in grad school, and she has a some exam due Sunday night. And guess when she’s writing the exam? Don’t even tell me, I’m going to say, I’m going to say she was doing it Wednesday night. Oh, what. What the hell. Who does it on Wednesday? Who even knows to think like that? Yeah, yeah. Neurotypicals do, yeah? And she said, Well, I’m hoping to enjoy the weekend, and I won’t have an opportunity because we’re going to so and so’s cabin and blah, blah, blah. And I’m just mystified by her understanding how the world works. And so then she does these social things. And all through elementary, through high school, she’s had friends. And I’ve watched my girls who are social, they’re funny, yeah, struggle with friendships. Yeah, yeah. And you know this is it’s not just because the females, females with ADHD, tend to have more difficulties, right? But it it’s painful being us, so

Kristen Carder 12:49
painful this, I think would be a great time to chat about rejection sensitivity, because that plays out so much in friendships, but also in families. Big way. I would love to hear from you. What does rejection sensitivity mean for you in the world of relationships? Like, how do you define it? How do you think it through? Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:15
well, if you think in families, families are the place where we grow up and learn about ourselves first. They’re the first time we look around and go, Oh, here’s who I am. And we start to form who we are based on these other people. And the two most important people in that are your parents. That’s just a psychological thing, and if they have ADHD, or if for some reason, they can’t meet your needs, the child often looks and well, what’s wrong with me? So this develops very early, yeah, and then we develop these patterns throughout our lives. Now I’m not doing justice to rejection sensitivity, but in families, we just start to learn to be people pleasers. We learn to be more friendly. We learn to be funny, funny, maybe not pointing fingers, but you learn to be gregarious. Yes, yeah, because that’s all camouflage to cover up. Please don’t reject me. Yes, and remember the joke we, you know, talked about at the top of the hour, yeah, is when you said, Do I look normal? Well, because I don’t know that for myself, because I don’t have that yeah, I’m going around to the world saying, Please don’t reject me. I don’t know if I’m normal or not. Oh, that’s so good. Now, I know there’s a lot of people out there go ADHD is, you know, my superstar. It makes me a hero. I’m awesome because of it. Great. Most of us are walking around with wounds from it. Yeah. Hmm, and I would just ask those people to be sensitive.

Kristen Carder 15:05
I love how you put that, because I’m not as sweet. I encounter people who say, you know, ADHD is my superpower, or a recent book that came out called ADHD is awesome, and I just want to, like, hit someone, because,

Kristen Carder 15:25
as a whole, I

Kristen Carder 15:26
mean my speaking for myself, of course. But then on behalf of the clients that I support, exactly, we are wounded like we are not okay. We’re not we’re

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:38
trying to look normal. We are trying to seeking a lot of energy,

Kristen Carder 15:42
and then we’re depleted, and we still feel like maybe not accepted and maybe having we’re contorting ourselves and self abandoning just to be in the herd, in the group, in The tribe, and gosh, that is hard.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 16:01
It’s, it’s literally why I wrote the book, because I want people. So the first half the book, it is called part one, is it starts with you. Yeah. In other words, get your stuff managed. Yes, don’t expect other people to manage your emotions. You know, don’t expect people to manage you, right? So get your stuff together. So good. Now here’s how you relate to your people,

Kristen Carder 16:25
so good. I I am so interested in the way that it kind of all plays together. Like, yes, we have to get our stuff together, but we also have to learn how to interact with people, and we have to be able to discern who around us is safe, who around us is toxic. And I know you have a whole section on that in the book. How do you help people to determine whether relationships are healthy or unhealthy? Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:00
so I turn it around a little bit in part one, I talk about, are you a safe person? Yeah. And that’s because a lot of my clients are like, Oh, that person’s toxic. That person’s toxic. I’m like, hold up. Let’s examine ourselves first, are you safe? I have a client today who just exploded at a family member, and yet I know when we meet that she will say that it was her family member’s fault. Yeah, yeah. So we have to start by being safe people. We have to start by really examining who we are. I grew up with a lot of toxic people. I grew up with a family who I don’t want to be disrespectful, because everything that happened made me who I am. So in a way, I thank the people who weren’t functional, because they gave me insight and they gave me wisdom. But as a kid, that was really hard to grow up with, real hard, and so I I learned, you okay, I would love to finish that sentence. I learned not to tolerate toxic people. I didn’t. Did

Kristen Carder 18:22
you learn to tolerate them? Because that’s what I feel like. That was the normal thing. That’s what I’m saying. So,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 18:28
you know, I sorry. This is a I want to be more uplifting than this, but no, don’t be 40 years to figure this out. Yeah, um, because I just, you know, I married someone who had traits again, I want to be respectful to those people in my life who you know, they taught me things. So I don’t want to ever do tell alls where I’m like, oh, this person. I’m a victim of this or this. I want to be respectful, but I kept getting into toxic situations. I worked at a toxic College. Wow, it was a small college, yeah, absolutely toxic. Yeah. I worked at all these different places. And what’s funny is I kept accepting it, yeah? And finally a counselor said, Well, you know, you just accept that. And I literally looked at her, what? Wait. Do you mean I have choices? Wow, and that was a big, big moment for me. And she’s like, Yeah, we tend to choose workplaces that we would also accept as a family. And oh yeah, she was really good, yeah, my nickname for her was the detective, because she could always draw the truth out. Oh, that is a good now. So the detective really showed up for me, and she’s asking me a lot of hard questions, yeah, and so I appreciate that. And so now I know toxic people, yeah, but they’re not. My life, yes,

Kristen Carder 20:01
I just want to, I don’t know, validate, commiserate and say for myself, and I think a lot of our listeners, the family systems that we grew up in were dysfunctional, but we didn’t realize it, because we just thought it was normal, and then that teaches us about ourselves, like you said at the beginning, like I learned how to see myself through the eyes of my caregiver. But if my caregiver is unkind to me or feeling contempt toward me, then I’m gonna feel that toward myself. I’m gonna put that on myself, yeah. And then, of course, we accept that as normal in our friendships, in our partnerships, in the workplace. I think so many people with ADHD are just waking up to how toxic so many of the relationships are. Honestly, actually, I think it’s a society, whether or not it’s ADHD, I just I noticed this trend in society where, like,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:01
I feel waking up, I really feel that, because I think I don’t know why I feel that. So this is going to be a little woo, woo sounding. Yeah, I really feel that people are starting to go, hold up. I have options, yes, and I’m going to choose light. This

Kristen Carder 21:16
is weird, and it’s not something I’ve ever said out loud, but I wonder if part of it is like, we’re we’re getting out of survival mode as, like, a country, you know, like, think about our parents and our grandparents and great grandparents, like war and depress, like the Great Depression and poverty and all of that. And like, as a country, we’re kind of working our way out of survival mode, and so we’re able now to, like, think about other things. Okay,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:44
so in our family, I talk about with my girls that, you know, they knew I had a tough upbringing, and you know that goes back generations. Yeah, I explained to them, I’m here to stop this generation pull. I’m here. I’m here to do this, and so this is what it looks like. We love each other no matter what. Yes, we love each other. We’re with each other, and we’re going to be speak truth to each other, but we’re also going to show grace and kindness. Now I have four girls, four, yeah, three, biological step daughter, who is the oldest. So I don’t know if you know girls, girls, and if you went went to middle school, but girls not the best. They’re not great all the time. So yeah, do they get sideways with each other? Of course. Do they do like jerky things to each other? Of course? Yeah, but there’s a heart in it, yes. And they love each other, and they’re there for each other.

Kristen Carder 22:46
What has it been like for you to be a cycle breaker? Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:53
lonely, and I’m not sure. I’m not saying that. You know, for any pity, it’s been lonely because no one’s going no one applauds the cycle breaker in a family,

Kristen Carder 23:07
in a family. No, no, yeah. In fact, you become the bad guy.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 23:12
I am the bad guy, and I have been disowned. I don’t usually talk about this, but I’ve been disowned by both my parents and I, you know, I watch on the news. You know, someone’s going well, you know, I love my son, even though he killed 52 people and he did this and this and this, I love him. He’s a good boy. And I’m always thinking, huh, those are the kind of parents who like, they’re Ride or Die parents.

Kristen Carder 23:40
My guess is you’ve never killed 52 people, no, not even close

Dr. Tamara Rosier 23:45
to that number. So, so good. But yeah, and so, you know, I just see what? Sometimes, when I work with clients, they have these parents that will just love them so thoroughly, yeah? And my heart aches because they can’t see that love and accept that love, yeah? So yeah, it’s lonely. It’s all

Kristen Carder 24:08
lonely.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:09
I’m the outcast, yeah? I may. I chose certain decisions and was disowned as a

Kristen Carder 24:17
as a result, as a result, not to get too deep into it, but the decisions was it like boundaries and how you wanted to raise your own family and what you would and would not tolerate. I’m just guessing, no,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:31
no. What happened when I was 12 years old? Lady, I will say this, I ran away from home, I decided I couldn’t live like this for you, and so I negotiated my freedom with one parent to be sent to the other parent. So, yeah, that was a so I was always known as the bad kid, right? Yeah. I.

Kristen Carder 25:00
What is it like being known as the bad kid and then moving into the professional world as someone who was literally like a professor, a school administrator, a teacher, a coach, a consultant, like that’s not an insignificant rap sheet of like, what you’ve been able to accomplish, but

Dr. Tamara Rosier 25:23
sweet. Well, it’s true. You’re gonna make me cry. That’s so sweet. See, do you see what happens? So it’s nice to me. I’m like, Whoa. I can handle being a lot better than that. Yeah, right. I feel that. I know either way, that’s an ADHD thing too.

Kristen Carder 25:38
It’s just like this craving for being seen, maybe, right?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 25:41
So, you know, it’s so funny. I started out as a high school teacher, and that was the best thing I could ever do, because I learned to love. I learned to love unconditionally. I learned I could lead Well, yes, guess what? I was really good with at risk populations, shocker, yeah, why would I be good? Oh, I don’t know. Because I had ADHD, yes, and they abused the heck out of me. Yeah, I remember teaching, and I was having fun. My class was laughing, man, we’d act out Shakespeare. Everyone was having a great time. And there were other teachers just doing worksheets. And I thought, am I doing this wrong? Like I’m loving my job? Yeah, I think I’m doing this all wrong. Yeah, yeah, um, so that was the job that helped me figure out life a little bit more. From then on, I just kept Lily padding on from one thing to the next. Yeah, that’s like, about, right? Yeah,

Kristen Carder 26:43
that’s so great. I love it. EG, one is like, daily self care for me, I have ADHD, I’m pretty inconsistent with my diet and nutrition, but I know that I’m doing at least one good thing for my body every day when I start my day with ag one. And I’ve been doing that for years now, and it really does give my body the vitamins, minerals and probiotics that it needs. And speaking of probiotics, in a recent research study, AG, one was actually shown to double the amount of healthy bacteria in the gut. These healthy bacteria work together to break down food and are known to alleviate bloating, promote digestive regularity, and aid to digestive comfort long term, and also, for those of us with ADHD, having a healthy gut actually does improve our brain function. Now that’s so, so important for us, AG, one is just a simple thing that I’ve implemented into my daily routine, and I use that word very loosely, routine that has made a big difference for me. It’s helped me to fill nutrient gaps, and I know that it has supported my gut for healthy digestion. So start your day with a g1 and notice the difference for yourself. It’s a great first step to investing in your health, and that’s why they’ve been my only partner on this podcast ever. That’s why. So try ag one and get a free bottle of vitamin d3, k2, and five free. AG, one travel packs, which are amazing, by the way, and I was just in Europe, and you better believe that I took those, AG, one travel packs with me. I 100% did so you can get five free travel packs with your first purchase at drink. AG, one.com/i have ADHD. That is a $48 value for free if you go to drink. AG, one.com/i have ADHD. Go check it out. So we were talking about safe people and toxic people. What do you think is the hallmark difference, like, one or two big things, yeah, between a safe person and a toxic person.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 28:56
I actually talk about it in the book, but I don’t connect them this directly, sure. So in the book, in the first part, I talk about the difference between survival and transformational thinking. Yeah, survival thinking. We all do it. It’s not bad. It’s not it’s not anything corrupt in us. We do it out of sense of survival. But it’s a very egocentric state. I’m thinking about my needs, what I want. Transformational thinking is where I can I’m a little bit bigger in spirit, and I can look at you, and I can love you, and I can see your needs and look at my needs. And how can those needs match up, like I’m taking a bigger picture people who are in survival, survival thinking, you want to be careful of because they will cut you. Will cut you. And it doesn’t mean all survival thinkers are dangerous, but I would watch for anyone, anytime. If anyone is in the, oh, I have to teach them a lesson, kind of mentality. If you drive with a person, you’ll know if they’re in survival, like, they’ll be like, Oh, that guy just cut me off. Um, that’s kind of a survival attacking the world. Yeah, right. And they’ll give you a hint. Wow, that they’re not

Kristen Carder 30:21
so you said, Actually, I’m not sure what you said, but it triggered my thinking to the part of the book where you talk about the different types of lenses, yeah, that we through, which we can see the world. Yes. Would you talk about that a little bit

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:38
that is in the same chapter, like, yeah, on this. Um, so I do talk about the telephoto lens, yes. And that’s like, survival thinking. And survival thinking is when we get really honed in. And I talk about it because those of us with ADHD can do this, yeah. Like, it’s our job, yeah, because we’re like, I just have to finish this, and all heck could be breaking loose, but we’re trying to focus here. Yeah, right. Here’s an example of my survival, thinking I’m trying to leave the house, and if you’re like me, it takes sometimes seven times like me tracking to bed last night it was I counted seven times I’d get, Oh, I forgot this, oh, I forgot this, right? Well, I’m trying to get it out of the house in the morning, and my husband wants to know, because the guy likes me, he wants to know what time I get home. And I’m like, that’s impossible to know. Theoretically, there’s a calendar, but that can’t know that. And he’s trying to ask me questions. Yeah, I’m trying to remember, turn off the back, back porch light. Do this. Do this. Do this. Before I leave.

Kristen Carder 31:49
Don’t bug me.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:50
Don’t bug me. Stop it. Yeah, because that’s an example of my survival thinking, Yes, that is not the best self that I want to show

Kristen Carder 31:59
it doesn’t integrate well with others. It doesn’t Yeah, no. So then what are other lenses that we can use? Yeah?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:09
So the opposite of the telephone, is there any other lens, right? Anyone but any other lens? Yeah? Is transformational thinking. And transformational thinking is when I can really start to be who I am. And I look at a person and I can see them. I don’t see them as what they’re a threat to me or what they can do for me. I see the person in front of me. I see the soul in front of me, right? Yeah, that’s how I’m in transformational thinking. I know what I believe. I don’t have to push it on you. Yeah, I’m okay with that. I know who I am, and I know we just made jokes about like, do I look normal? Do I know who I am? Who am I anyway? Oh, but at the core, you know who you are, and you know where you stop and others begin. And so if someone is being toxic to me, now that I’m super old and have learned a lot, if someone’s being toxic to me, I’m like, Oh, you’re having difficulty. Yeah, that’s not my stuff. I will leave you to that.

Kristen Carder 33:20
I just think that that specifically is one of the hardest things for someone with ADHD and this, I think, is, well, maybe this whole conversation is just all about like the overlap of relational trauma and ADHD and Hall all works together, but it’s a big stew, a very big stew. And one thing in myself that took me forever to learn and then also now helping my clients is, where do I stop and someone else begins like those exact words, yes, and I realized that all of my formative relationships were extremely enmeshed. And in my family, there was not autonomy, that we did not have the gift of autonomy. And so it was enmeshment, and kind of like melding into each other, and in order to be safe within that system, that’s what just had to happen. And so you learned the rules. Oh, that was the rule, yeah. And we all learn the rules, right? Like that’s just what we do. And thank God we do, because then we get to survive in our families, right for a little while. But learning how to be a separate person and not let someone else’s stuff impact me and derail my entire day has been probably some of the hardest work of my life.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:44
Oh, that is the ADHD world. Okay. Can

Kristen Carder 34:48
you speak to it a little bit like, How does someone learn we are separate, and I can have empathy for your experience, but I don’t have to take on your experience and make it. My issue. Girl, I

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:01
wrote a whole chapter on unregulated empathy. I write

Kristen Carder 35:04
the title of that chapter so much because,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:07
but it’s at the end of the book. And the reason I put it at the end of the book is because you’ve got to figure out so much of this other stuff first, yeah. And you have to figure out who you are, what you believe in, and where you went, Yeah, and you know, I’m married to a really good man who has ADHD, and his ADHD isn’t delightful like mine is. His ADHD is very cranky. I think it’s not the fun kind. No, not, not like me, not pure joy. Yes, pure joy. I think it’s that’s the variation of my ADHD cult, but his is cranky. He has cranky ADHD. So last weekend we had to take down our deck. And we have a big, huge deck. We love it. It’s our third living room when we you know, it’s just, we love it. And he did it all by himself, and I he came out, he’s like, can you help me with just one thing? Great, and I so appreciate the work he’s doing.

Speaker 1 36:07
But listening to him, he is like, Oh, wow, I don’t know why,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:14
and it’s just cranky, cranky, yeah, to objects, not to me. I want to be clear. He wasn’t cranky too. But as an ADHD person, what do I do? You’re absorbing all of this? Yeah? No, I’m super old, and I’ve done a lot of work, yeah, but still, and so it’s a temptation to let that through, yeah? And instead, I’m like, semi permeable, semi permeable membrane. Tamara, and I have to remember, like, and I literally kind of imagine, like, a little bubble coming over me, like, that’s his process. You are not his ADHD coach. And guess what, if you are cranky ADHD, I mean, I could imagine that it could be at one point in my life, but not really, no, frequently, right? You wouldn’t want someone doing stepping in there, so don’t correct him, yeah, leave him to himself, and he he’s working, yeah? This is his process. You know what I would have done 15 years ago, solved it. No, I would have fought it. Oh, love that. Oh, right, yeah, because I would be like, I don’t, I don’t know what your problem is, sir, but you need to stop this. I’m not going to be around you if you talk like this. Yes, I see now I can look and go it actually. Now I’m sad that he had that’s part of his process, because it’s a really, I know what he’s doing. He’s trying to think out loud, yeah, everything’s harder than what it should be for him, of course. I mean, for all of us with ADHD, yeah, and he doesn’t like the feeling, yeah, and yet he’s being a hero for taking the whole deck down, right? So my the way I love him is to witness it, yeah, but now I have to resolve it.

Kristen Carder 38:00
Tell me what you mean by witness. I think that’s a really important word. Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:05
it’s hard, and I don’t think we do well in our society talking about this. So I don’t know how this is gonna land with people, but we’re really big on solving people’s pain. Yeah, and yet, I don’t think we’re called to solve every pain. Yeah, I think we’re called to walk with people and to love people and to witness and sometimes the person who taught me this was a chaplain for hospice. Oh, wow, yeah. And so for your listeners, hospice comes in and helps people who are in the end stages of their life, yeah? And she would come in and witness the grief, yeah. And like having a witness there was, is comforting, yeah, because you’re walking with during that time, yeah, she couldn’t solve anything, no, and yeah, her presence was there. So that’s what I mean by witness.

Kristen Carder 39:07
I think that’s a skill that we could all probably use developing a little bit.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 39:13
It’s hard to sit with my clients and witness their pain. Yeah, you know, as a trade coach, yeah, we don’t solve problems, but we walk with them. Yeah,

Kristen Carder 39:25
there’s like, such a difference though, when it’s like, my kid or, well, that’s my husband. Yeah, that’s the thing is, like, it feels like a professional separation when I’m holding space for a client, but really, I had to go to therapy to learn how to hold space for my kids. So I got trained as a coach to learn how to hold space for my clients. Yes, but I had to do some deep work in therapy to learn how to just hold the space, just witness, just be there with my person, whoever that was, who was. Having an emotional experience without me feeling threatened by it, yes, or feeling upset by it, or feeling just this compulsion to want to fix it, fix it. Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:13
that Yeah. That’s literally why I wrote the book. You know what? That’s my new answer. From now on, can you go back? Sure. Hey, Tamara, why did you write this book? You know what? I wrote this book because parents have a hard time, and we have a hard time as family members, not acting compulsively out of love, but we make it worse. Yeah, it’s love,

Kristen Carder 40:33
but I think also for me, personally, it was self preservation, because I didn’t feel safe unless the people in my life were stable, good one. So I learned at a very young age to take care of grown ups, make sure everyone’s okay, yeah, yeah. And so I will perform, I will be funny, I will be your therapist. And so then I just that’s a skill that I developed. I was so good at it, yeah? So let me just do that now, as a mom of teen boys, and they’re like, Get out of here with that. And so I needed to go and, like, learn how to not

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:07
do that. Yeah. And biology works against you, yeah, right? Because oxytocin is like, I will walk through fire for them, absolutely. And a teenager looks at you and goes, I don’t want you to walk through fire for me. Yeah. You’re like, cool, but that’s what I’m made to do.

Kristen Carder 41:22
So you want me to what? Then, right? I

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:26
was just supposed to sit here, yeah, and the answer is yes, yeah. Do you know? Um, you know, when one of the girls calls and they’re upset, I literally put myself on mute, and it’s because I can’t sometimes help myself. What happened? Yeah, you’re kidding me. All right, fine. I’ll take a bat and I’ll solve this myself. I have all these like irrational mom moments, Mama Bear moments, and then I take a deep breath, take myself off me. Gosh, it’s so and say I am so sorry this is happening to you, and this sounds hard, like and I just start to process with them. It is hard work, and I don’t want it to even do it, yeah. I want to solve the problem for them, yeah. And it’s Yeah. And by the way, you know, the book isn’t for parents. It’s really for anyone who finds themselves in an ADHD family. But I’m a mom,

Kristen Carder 42:26
if you have your if you have ADHD, you’re gonna find yourself in an ADHD family, whether anyone else around you is officially diagnosed or not. So it truly is a book for anyone, right, whether you are young without kids, or whether you’re like you have grandkids, because if you have ADHD, there are people in your family who also have ADHD. And so figuring out these fundamentals is just paramount. So important it

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:56
is. I just, I feel like families could be such a source of joy. And I see a lot of people missing out on that, wow. And again. I mean, if you knew my family, we’re all kind of freaks and weirdos sometimes, yeah, but we’re funny ones, yeah, and we love each other. And so it is possible. It’s just, it’s a lot of hard work, yeah, because sometimes my ADHD gets in the way, sometimes theirs does. It’s complicated

Kristen Carder 43:33
when that happens. I like the chapter on I think it’s called Reach, repair, reconnect, holy cow, it really. Memory stood out to me. It was it was impactful, and I think that has so much to do with us having connected and, like, put the fun in dysfunctional families. Because without that, reaching, repairing and reconnecting, yeah, we just become fractured. So can you speak a little bit to that? Yeah? First

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:06
of all, a plus, plus for remembering, right? Thank

Kristen Carder 44:10
you so much. I

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:11
I mean seriously, because you’d be you could be like, yeah, it started with R’s or P’s or Q’s or something, but you remembered it exactly. I This is, again, towards the end the book, saying, Hey, we’re gonna screw up as families. Yeah. And I was noticing, for my own family and from all the families I work with, they didn’t have a repair process, yes. And so some would, because get Sorry, not sorry

Kristen Carder 44:41
when you don’t have a repair process, we sweep things under the rug. Exactly what I was going to say, and that is just that is, like the Hallmark trait of so many dysfunctional families, is we sweep it under the rug. We’re not going to think about it. It’s fine. Don’t talk about it, right? It’s fine. Oh. Yeah, Okay, go.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 45:00
Yeah, Phil, that’s exactly container. So let’s say you know you were trying to talk to me as I was leaving the house. I’m like, for crying out, love, stop talking to me. Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s not, that’s unkind. That’s not who I want to be. Yeah, right. So if we just handle this ADHD world, I would say, well, you should know not to talk to me when I’m trying to leave the house and I get all self righteous. Well, the truth is, my behavior wasn’t great, yeah, so I need to own that. But I find a lot of my Adichie clients go, Yeah, it’ll flow down the river. It’s fine, totally. And so the sad thing is, if I yelled at you, that’s going to you’re going to remember how I made you feel. If I keep doing that, you’re going to keep remembering, yeah, how I made you feel, yeah. And you can still choose your own feelings from that, but you’re going to remember, yeah, that initial sting, yep, that initial primal response, right? So I recommend a three step process, because we can follow three steps. And you demonstrated you could even remember three years. We can do it. And so the first one is to do a reach, so it would look like, Hey, can we talk about this morning? And if you’re still really mad, you have the right to go, No, I’m still bit peeved. Yeah, need some space. And then I would say, Okay, do you want me to ask again? Or do you want to circle back with me? I like that, right? And so it’s just now, sometimes the reach can just be, Hey, do you have a second, right? But it’s saying, I want to reach out to you again. When I teach this, I hand out my hand, or I hold out my hand. I’m reaching for you. Okay? And a lot of people are missing that reach, but then we need to go into a repair, we actually have to hey, I wasn’t my best this morning. I didn’t get a lot of sleep, and I’m not trying to make excuses, but I want you to know that’s not who I want to be, yeah, and I really hope you accept that apology. Now, sometimes it’s more complicated than that, and the repair takes a lot of time, yeah, sometimes it’s not, yeah, right. And then finally, there’s reconnect. And then the reconnect is now that we’re repairing. Let’s find a way to start putting putting the connections back between us. So here’s an image I use. Let’s say you and I have words. It’s almost like we cut these invisible strings between us. Yeah. Now it doesn’t mean we stop loving each other. It means we cut those strings. When all those strings are gone, when we do the reach, that’s one string to come back. When we do the repair, we’re putting more strings. And then when we do the reconnect, we’re adding more strings. It means we’re connected by these invisible threads, and that’s why that process is so important.

Kristen Carder 48:11
Again, this goes into the category of things that we should know. No,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:18
I don’t think this is this category. No, tell me, because if we knew this, neurotypicals would be doing it like it was their job.

Kristen Carder 48:26
Oh, see, neurotypicals really better. Yeah, that makes me feel better.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:30
I think this is this one where we get a pass on I think, because

Kristen Carder 48:35
I was like, gosh, this is just like another thing that we didn’t, that we weren’t taught, or that we would like part of the rule book or the handbook that we were never given. But yeah, I think you’re right. There are when I think about the workplace environments and school environment, like there’s a lot of neurotypicals who don’t know know how to reach, repair, reconnect. But

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:59
here’s the thing, you know those invisible threads between us, yeah, when you have ADHD, we see and feel those threads like very deeply, yeah, yeah. And so this reach, repair and reconnect, so important to us, because we need those threads to know I’m connected to you again, it’s okay. Why is

Kristen Carder 49:18
it almost more important for us at each years. Why do we feel that more deeply? Does that go to emotional regulation or, like, what is that? Well,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:27
we do every emotion big, yeah. And so we love big. We love. And it’s not just people pleasing or, you know, rejection, sensitivity, no, we love big. Yeah. We love our animals big, right? We love our people big. We love in a big way, yeah? And so those invisible threads, they make us feel, okay, yeah,

Kristen Carder 49:51
it’s like we love in a big way. But then also, when there’s a fracture, we also feel that. In a very big way as well, yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:02
oh gosh, yeah. Fractures are just Yeah, and it’s hard for us, right? Because, you know, again, the prefrontal cortex goes offline. We’re thinking from the limbic center, yeah. I think there’s also all, right, this is gonna sound kind of dirty, but there’s also probably a primal part of us that says, Wow, we can’t be disconnected from our tribe 100% I’m not safe without my tribe 100% and so then we feel very vulnerable and exposed. So I think there’s even, like, these deeper, yeah, things I feel that, okay, good. Yeah. I never said that out loud, but oh, that

Kristen Carder 50:41
resonates with me absolutely. Because, again, going back to the wounding in families, the wounding in school settings, the wounding and friend groups. Like, it’s all about the tribe, the group, the herd, exactly, and safety being on the outside of that, yep. Like, am I okay? Am I gonna survive like all the 11 year old girls are talking about my hair?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:06
Oh gosh, yeah, never wanted to redo Middle School. No, but you kidding. That’s that goes back to why the family is so important, right? The family is critical because it’s a place where we can be safe.

Kristen Carder 51:22
What do you have to say to ADHD parents who are listening, who are getting those pangs of like, shoot, I don’t think I did this with my kids when they were little. I don’t think I Right. Was the parent that they needed. I coach so many people, when we talk about healthy relationships and and that kind of thing, they say there’s so much regret that they have for the way that they just like didn’t know any better with their kids, or maybe knew better but didn’t have the resources to do anything. What do you have to say to parents who are like, feeling a lot of regret right now?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:06
Well, first of all, I can say I used to be one of them. Yes. I mean, there were times I would call one of my daughters and say, I’m sorry I did this wrong. I mean, I had, I had my first child at 25 Yeah, and then 27 and, you know, 20 years ago that wasn’t abnormal, yeah, right, yeah, today is not as normal, yeah, it seems. But yeah, I felt like that too. Yeah. So first I want, first I want to say to parents, I get it. You know why I love my kids. I love my kids so much that I wanted to be perfect for them, yes. And the reality is, I showed up every day, and I know I tried my best at the time, and sometimes my best wasn’t good enough for them, yeah. So then I would tell parents, please be kind, and if you, if you have something to apologize for, legitimately apologize to your kid. Yes, go do that. Yes, they’re feeling all resentful or not or remorseful. Rather, go do that. But the repair? Yeah, do the reach, reconnect and repair, or I’ll get it right. This time I wrote me

Kristen Carder 53:21
teach you, Tamara, it’s reach repair.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:25
That’s hilarious. But do that, yeah, otherwise be kind Yes. Do they turn out? Yes? Do they are they still learning? Yes? Are you still learning? Yeah, you’re part of this is all a journey together. And so when we step back and go, this is a journey. This wasn’t a test that I failed.

Kristen Carder 53:47
Oh, that’s good. Say it again.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:48
That meant I was listening to myself. This isn’t a this isn’t a test that you failed, yeah, this is a journey that we’re on together.

Kristen Carder 53:56
I think you just really unlocked something for me. Because I think that when I’m talking to clients who are just so full of regret and kind of desperate to like, what can I do? What can I do? I think it’s that they feel like they failed a test, right? And they’re not realizing, like, as long as your kids are still alive, like, go reconnect, right? Go make that repair. Go reach out to them. Do the things, because it is just a journey. It’s not like you get one shot at it, like you get to your kids are still your kids, right? And

Unknown Speaker 54:30
as someone do, I want to say it,

Kristen Carder 54:36
oh, it’s a hard question to answer for me, from me to me, as someone who has struggled in the relationship with parents, even at 43 if they were to reach repair, reconnect, yes, I’d be down

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:51
right. And if you weren’t, you wouldn’t be healthy enough. Yeah, if they were really at a at a J. You in place? Yeah, that’s what I’m saying, yes, of a place of health, yeah? Saying, Hey, I see some things I would have done it differently, yeah, or even to say I didn’t know to do it differently, yeah? And I’m sorry that affected you. Yeah, right, yeah, if you were at a healthy place to go, yes, yeah? The Reconnection, reconciliation.

Kristen Carder 55:23
It’s like, I don’t think What parent, what parents don’t understand is that it’s never too late to repair with your kiddo, as long as the kiddo, I guess there may be some boundaries there still, right? But like, you can still do your part of making a repair. Yeah?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:43
Families wound us so deeply. And it’s, it’s amazing. So I have a great imagination, okay, like,

Kristen Carder 55:52
I already know that from the title of your books, like, something about squirrels, peccadilloes, like the Yeah,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:59
oh, so I have a great imagination, yeah, and something that’s helped me put this all into focus is I imagine that before my life began, I was like, hey, Tamara, you’re gonna go to Earth. You’re gonna have these things. Okay, you’re gonna have these, these kids, but you’re not gonna meet them. Till later, you’re going to have these parents, and you know what? They might they might do things, but this is part of the agreement, because we want you to kind of grow and learn from some things, right? And then I accept that assignment, yeah, and so I don’t hold grudges against my parents. Yeah. Again, they made me who I am, yeah, yeah, they left some scars. I couldn’t have written you me and our ADHD family. Wow, yeah, sorry. I got teary eyed saying that, but yeah, sorry, please, don’t ever

Kristen Carder 56:56
apologize for being authentic. Well, I

Dr. Tamara Rosier 56:59
don’t like to show a lot of emotion, though, so, but that’s the truth. The truth is, I just because of the place I’m in emotionally, not everyone is in this place yet, yeah, but I’m in this place, and so I could go, this was all for a purpose, and I’m okay. She says as she’s tearing up, but anyway, she’s okay,

Kristen Carder 57:25
blotting the tears from her eyes, saying, I’m okay. I think that is a beautiful representation of health, to be able to feel something so deeply and still know that you’re okay,

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:38
yeah, and again, like I’m not if someone’s listening, going, you don’t, you don’t know what my parents did to me. I was sorry, yeah, because there are people who had it far worse. I read stories that are just so terrific, so true, and I listen to my clients, they’re just horrific, yeah, and I’m not saying you have to be at that place. Yeah, you have to give yourself time to heal for

Kristen Carder 58:03
sure. And, um, anger is a great part of the healing process, and naming harm is an important part of the healing, like all of

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:12
that is so I am not trying to again. I’m old. I’ve gone through those Yes, you’ve been I’ve heard those badges,

Kristen Carder 58:18
yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. Thank you for being willing to go through what you did as a girl and learn all of the lessons along the way so that you could put them into this precious book.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:34
Why are you being nice and making me cry right now? That’s really my question.

Kristen Carder 58:39
I think it’s because you deserve to be told that this is really an important body of work, and I just so appreciate it.

Unknown Speaker 58:47
Thank you for reading it. It

Kristen Carder 58:48
means the world to me. I highly recommend. Obviously, we will link it in the show notes. You Me and our ADHD family if you have ADHD, or if someone you love has ADHD go by the book, it’s so good. Thank you for being here. Tamara, this has been really special. Well,

Unknown Speaker 59:06
thank you. I love being here. Thank

Kristen Carder 59:08
you. A few years ago, I went looking for help. I wanted to find someone to teach me how to feel better about myself and to help me improve my organization, productivity, time management, emotional regulation. You know, all the things that we adults with ADHD struggle with, I couldn’t find anything. So I researched and I studied and I hired coaches and I figured it out, and then I created focused for you. Focused is my monthly coaching membership where I teach educated professional adults how to accept their ADHD brain and hijack their ability to get stuff done. Hundreds of people from all over the world are already benefiting from this program and confident that you will too go to Ihaveadhd.com/focused for all details.