Kristen Carder 0:00
I have my client Carrie here, who is a physician and OB GYN, Carrie, thank you so much for being here. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell us who you are. Would you mind sharing your ADHD journey with us? So how did you survive medical school?
Hey, what’s up? This is Kristen Carter, and you’ve tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. I’m so excited for our episode today, because it’s gonna be deep. It is gonna be a deep and soulful episode, and I think you’re gonna love every single second of it. I have my client Carrie here, who’s a physician, an OB GYN, who went through medical school as a person with ADHD and then succeeded in the workplace as a person with ADHD. And she’s going to tell her story. She’s going to talk about what it was like. She’s going to talk about burnout. She’s going to talk about the impact that professors and teachers had on shaping her self concept as a physician with ADHD, it’s gonna be deep. It’s gonna be good. You are in for a treat as usual as we get started. Do you know what I’m gonna say? This podcast is sponsored by this podcast. So if you could go ahead and like, subscribe, comment, review, do all of the fun things for us, that would be great. It is the best way that you can support the show. It is the nicest thing that you can do for Kristen Carter. It’s literally the nicest thing that you can do for me, and so I would so appreciate it press that like button if you’re watching on YouTube and you want to say hi to Carrie and just be like, Hey, I love your red hair. It’s gorgeous. Or I love your red glasses. Go ahead and do that and interact with this podcast, with the show in some way. It’s the best way that you can support it. All right, let’s get to the show. Carrie, thank you so much for being here, tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell us who you are.
Kerry 2:04
First of all, thank you so much for having me very excited. Good. I’m excited too. So I My name is Carrie, and I am an OB GYN physician. I am 50 years old,
Kristen Carder 2:19
which is shocking. When she told me that earlier, because I am obnoxious and I ask questions like that, I fell over like, How is this possible? It gives me hope. It gives me so much hope. I love it.
Kerry 2:31
Yeah, so I will not go into the answer I gave you before about so young y’all and then related, I’m actually a single mom by choice of a almost seven year old boy. Love. I’m an ADHD coach, and I am also a certified coach in because of ADHD several other modalities. So great, yeah, and I live in Boulder, Colorado, and yeah, just really excited to be here. Cool. But again, additional piece of me is I have absolutely have ADHD, and my journey with that sort of has evolved over time. And so like, Yeah, I think that’s how I learning more about ADHD, through your program, and then a lot of other ways sort of has really brought this to become a little bit more of a focus of interest for
Kristen Carder 3:25
me. Yeah, so, so would you mind sharing your ADHD journey with us? Like, what has that looked like for you? When were you diagnosed? And I’m very interested to know what was it like being diagnosed as a physician.
Kerry 3:38
So I was diagnosed when I was 20.
Kristen Carder 3:46
Oh, ish, okay. Were you in medical school at the time I was pre med,
Kerry 3:50
I was not. So I was still so I was pre med, and so, yeah, I was diagnosed when I was 20, but my diagnosis consisted of, I think psychic, can’t remember this part, but something going through the school services, and then it sort of casually came up. And then I did a year between college and medical school where I did research with a pediatric neurologist. And one day, my boss just said, so should we talk about your ADHD? And I sang crying because I was again, I knew that I was struggling, and so for her to see me, which is a theme that we’ll revisit in terms of actually being seen, yeah, um, was really helpful. And so I never went through neuro psych testing. I never did anything. She just watched me, yeah. And then was like, I think you have this and then, but for me, there was no discussion. Of it all. My only awareness of ADHD was that I was kind of a hot mess in my mind, and that I really struggled with some things, and I was kind of messy, and so I didn’t really know sure anything over and above what I knew nothing about executive functions, like I knew things were hard for me, but I didn’t know that that was part of the diagnosis. So got in with a psychiatrist, started medication, had incredible barriers to getting medication over time, because it’s like, you have to make an appointment, and you have to make an appointment in three months. Because this was yes, because I’m 50, like, this was in the 90s, dang. And so I would get medication, and then I would not have, like, regular follow up, and I really wouldn’t have sort of the thing. And so that I would stop taking medicine and then get on and off it and on and off it. So not consistency, yeah, and then, you know, my awareness now, of in the last couple of years, of, again, through finding your podcast, and also really starting to just sort of work with, you know, doing coaching and sort of underlying, like, actually, what is having ADHD, mean, I’ve learned a lot more about, like, again, a lot of the executive functions, which has been sort of so my journey of I was diagnosed relatively early, wow,
but
not really, didn’t actually know what it meant, and didn’t actually have any help or support around it, for the Most
Kristen Carder 6:37
part. So how did you survive medical school.
Kerry 6:43
Well, I was interested in it.
Kristen Carder 6:44
Ah, yes, so good,
Kerry 6:47
yeah. And I mean, honestly, I think a lot of the issue, like talking about some of the stuff sort of down the rows of how it impacts me now in my life, really started with elementary school,
Kristen Carder 7:02
tell us.
Kerry 7:04
So I was it
feels weird saying it because it’s, there’s not again, various varying degrees of, you know, intelligence. And we’re all intelligent different ways. But in elementary school, I was telling just say it, you’re smart. Smart, own it. I Yeah, so good. And I tested, like, tested in elementary school and was put it in, like, the gifted program, right?
And then struggled, yep. And so in first grade, I had a teacher who
I had a special seat at the front of the classroom. You and every other listener, special seat at the front of the classroom? Yeah. And what I’ll talk about now, sort of is just sort of how things, sort of reasons that stuff show up now is that I remember being in the front of the classroom room. We were learning how to be to write our name on the top of the paper, and we had to look at the flag to see like it’s going to be on the right side or the left side of the paper based on like. Look at the flag. That’s the how you write like. That’s how you know to remember what side to write it on. And so from my vantage point in the classroom, which was different than all the other kids, it was on the opposite side, and I remember getting in trouble,
and as a six
year old being like, but I don’t understand, yeah, I’m following
the rules, but
getting in trouble and not having an adult or the teacher say, Oh, honey, Oh, I see what you did there. Yes. And instead just being like, you’re being bad, or you’re doing it wrong, or you’re intentionally doing this, and so like, for me, that just sort of became a pivotal moment
in,
like, the starting of ADHD and getting in trouble
Kristen Carder 9:04
is that like a theme, like a wounding theme for you, like getting in trouble, ADHD leading to getting in trouble 100% and then, how did that kind of, how did you see that in other areas, or, like, moving forward in school? Was that just happening over and over in the same type of way
Kerry 9:29
every year, with the exception of my third grade teacher, who I actually recently, last month, had a zoom call with my third grade teacher because we had become Facebook friends, and she just there was something I just wanted to know, like, what was different about her. So in my 20 years of school, she was just hands down, my favorite one. And so I was just like, I just want to know, like, is this something that I imagined, or is this just something just. Because I just wanted to know. And so we had, we talked for like an hour, and I told her my story of what happened in first grade, and she said, for me, it was fourth grade. And she said my fourth grade teacher said you should pick a career that doesn’t involve art or singing, because you’re not very good at either of those things,
Kristen Carder 10:22
oh my gosh, people can be horrible. Yeah.
Kerry 10:25
So she said, as a teacher, when kids were doing it different, I just was always mindful of how I communicated with teacher, with my kids. And also she talked about how later she was diagnosed with ADHD, no way. And she just said, like, the kids who were just turning in their homework and then just were like, didn’t ask any questions, didn’t do anything else. She was like, she had a harder time with them, yes, but the kids who were just like, curious or who needed to move and just really about meeting kids where they’re at, yeah, yeah. That just made so much sense that, like, of course, yeah, everything in my body loved her, yeah, in terms of like, I wasn’t made wrong so, but the rest of my journey was sort of in school, of like, there was a lot of things where I’m sort of impressed with myself. Of, you know, in eighth grade, the advanced program. The teachers had to make a recommendation of, could you do the advanced program in high school or not? And they told me they weren’t going to recommend it for me. I was like, this is going to be a no brainer, of course. And they said we’re not going to recommend you for that, because you’re not applying yourself. And I was like, I don’t care. I’m going to do it anyway. My parents weren’t in the room. I was there by myself.
Kristen Carder 11:44
Wow, that is impressive, that you would advocate for yourself in that way.
Kerry 11:49
Yeah? But for me, it’s just so funny, because there’s so many examples of my life where I’m like, winning, I actually know, and when I’m solid and when I’m grounded, like, I have the capacity to be like, I’m going to do whatever I’m going to
do for you, yeah? And
balanced with I have in most of the other times in my life, I have such a need for external validation of like, but I need to know that I’m okay, and then if like again, there is that lack of self trust because of perpetually being told you’re not applying yourself. You’re not applying yourself. You’re smart also, like, clearly I’m just lazy if I’m not turning in the work and not really looking at for me, I think the bigger thing is just like not looking at
this, like the
intention, not that. I mean, again, kids act for all out for all act out for all different reasons. But like, I was never intentionally not doing works again, and so just not being seen, of like, how hard I was trying, or, like, it wasn’t intentionally, like, not turning stuff in because I didn’t care, like, I was sort of just doing the best I could.
Kristen Carder 12:55
Did no one ask. Did no one ask you? Like, Hey, why aren’t you turning this in? I think,
Kerry 13:02
I think, and this is one of the things that sort of continues now. I think, you know, teachers, you know, in the 70s and 80s, girls didn’t have ADHD. I mean, we did,
Kristen Carder 13:13
right? But it wasn’t known, right?
Kerry 13:17
It wasn’t so, like, it’s, you’re smart, so this just must be like, yeah, and you’re not applying yourself. And so, you know, and doctors wouldn’t have said, I mean, again, I knew boys that were on medication, and those were boys who were doing things, but it just wasn’t a girl problem. And also, because I was able to cram or stay up all night, even, like in elementary school, or, like, staying up really late, doing stuff. And so, I mean, I think, and my parents tried hard to, like, get me support or tutors, but also were sort of just they didn’t know what ADHD was. And so just a lot of like, why aren’t you just a lot of sort of throwing your hands up, of like, what are you doing? And why can’t you do these things.
Kristen Carder 14:01
Yes. Did you get bad grades? I know. I mean,
like you don’t strike me as somebody that would even be getting C’s right. Yeah. So why are we throwing up our hands when your grades are fine.
Kerry 14:20
I think it was a lot of it would be, procrastinate,
procrastinate, put it off, put it off, put it off, and then cram it in, cram it in. And then the computer would crash in the middle of the night, and then I would wake up my mom, and then she’d be like, we gotta figure out how to not do this ahead of time, okay, and so, like it was sort of just the thing of, yeah, yeah, because,
yeah, because I was able to
study and cram and do the things and then do well on testing, yeah, yeah. So I think again, in some ways, like the masking, the ADHD through intelligence. And then also just drive because, I mean, I guess, luckily, when I was in elementary school, I decided I want to be a doctor, and so then I was like, Well, I’m just going to do that, yeah, so I kind of figured it out, but I didn’t do it the typical way of like,
yeah, so I got good grades, but like, not,
Kristen Carder 15:19
yeah, it’s so interesting. And I think that anyone with high intelligence will relate to this, where you know you’re capable, you know you’re going to pull it off, but the behind the scenes is a dumpster fire. The behind the scenes is chaos. The behind the scenes, I don’t know, I actually, I’d like to ask you, did you feel shame about the behind the scenes 100%
Kerry 15:44
and I still do now. I mean, I think the way that I one of the many ways, if we’re being honest, that I completely beat myself up about is like, you got through medical school, like I’m a surgeon, I do I can do the things. Why can’t I read an email? Yeah, why can’t I open the email? Why can’t I return the thing? And so that’s, again, also like, why am, why is everything a perpetual dumpster fire? In terms of, like, kind of, what I sort of describe it is that I put, I put things in place and I figure it out, because we’re always looking for, like, the perfect structure or the perfect system. And so, like, I kind of just make stuff work until something goes sideways, and then everything comes crashing down. And so, like, you make it work until you don’t, and then when it comes crashing down, or, you know, you forget to turn something in, and then you get a huge fine. And then you beat yourself up and you actively ignore it, and whatever. And you’re like, How can I be so capable at like, doing these things with work, but email and returning and all of the things are just
so hard.
Kristen Carder 16:52
The universality, I don’t even know if that’s a word, but I feel like it might be we can patent it, okay, the universality of that exact concept of, how can I be so competent in this area and such a dumpster fire in the rest of my life? It is so universal to the ADHD experience. And I think a lot of us make it mean like, oh, it’s because I’m not that smart, and I just want everyone to understand, like we have a surgeon sitting in front of us here, like a brilliant physician who has the same exact struggle as all of the rest of us, where it’s like, I’m so competent in my work, or in this one area, or in these couple areas, and then dumpster fire, yeah, in the rest of it,
Kerry 17:38
yeah. And I
think now, I mean, that’s one of those things I’ve sort of I struggle with, of working with, like, I mean, obviously within medicine, like electronic medical records, and I’m really thoughtful about my notes and doing all of those things. But like, sometimes I’ll actively avoid stuff just because of, like, I’m, like, that’s gonna be that’s gonna take a lot of thought, and I don’t have time now, and I want to give it the time that it the time that it deserves. And then from the outside appearance in the medical community, like you would think that physicians would just know, like, oh add, and I know what this, what it means. But like, even within the medical community, it is really not well known or understood. And I think that there is still a lot of sort of that thought of like, well, you just, you need to do it, and if you’re not doing it, then, like, there’s some sort of intention behind me not doing it, which is like, never the like, never the case.
Kristen Carder 18:34
So far from the truth. Yeah. So can you tell us about that transition into the medical field, and how did your teachers then, you know, the teachers that assumed that you were just flawed, assumed that you just didn’t care, assume that you just needed to get your act together. How did that impact you? Then, now working as a doctor,
Kerry 19:02
I mean, I think, I think it shows up as, like, deep embarrassment and like
I do like I feel really solid about my patient care. I like, you know, just connecting with patients, making sure that they see, feel seen and heard and educated, and sort of just, I think that I’m a great doctor, and for me, I really struggle with when I still the idea of getting in trouble
for
Hey, like, we have the turnaround time for these return to patient, like results or emails or just general work emails. Like, what I really struggle with is like, I know that they’re part of the job. There’s two. Things that I struggle with. I know that they’re part of the job, but when I get in trouble for that, I feel that, like, can we just focus on like that I have good reviews, and people feel seen and validated with me, and isn’t that more important? But also it is part of the job. And so like, that’s the thing where I’m like, okay, so it really is a job, and it is I actually have to do those things, yeah, but it is sort of a deep defensive mechanism of when I get in trouble for it, you’re just like, but can’t you? We focus on the more important part, yeah, like the
Kristen Carder 20:29
outcome, right? My patient care and all of that. I think that’s so relatable to so many people, because we all feel that way to some extent in our work, right? Well, I mean, I think we do where it’s just like, I’m so good and like, at the important things, at the things that actually matter, right? Why can’t I just be judged on that? And why do the things that don’t matter? Why do they matter so much to these freaking neurotypicals, to the normies, right? Why does it matter so much to the normies, right? And
Kerry 21:02
then I also, because I can see the point of, like, no patient emails. Are, you know, important in all those things, but like, yeah, it is just really hard. And then also, just because of all the stuff from, like, childhood, and again, I did really well in medical school, because I love it, yep, so much. So like that makes it like fun. And even now, like any of the pages that I’m on on like Facebook, and I’m like, someone posts about something medical, and I was like, I don’t know what that is. Like, I just I’m curious, but I’m also curious sort of by nature, yeah, and so I enjoy it, but it is still this perpetuation of I’m going to get in trouble, and also not wanting to let other people down, and sort of navigating it in that way of like, you know, it’s hard. The anybody who sort of would be listening to this and being like, well, everyone struggles with in basket, and everybody struggles with burnout, and everyone struggles with those tasks. And I’m like, 100% like, there’s something the medical system is pretty flawed in terms of how things are handled. So again, that is not a unique to ADHD, but think on top of the general population of physicians who are so burnt out and so overworked, add to it somebody who struggles tremendously with some executive function stuff and so, like, it just makes it like, not only am I struggling with it, but then I am beating myself up constantly about it. So, like, it’s just an added degree of,
like, ridiculousness.
Kristen Carder 22:35
Yeah, I think it was Ari Tuchman who said recently on this podcast that ADHD doesn’t create new problems, it just amplifies the universal problems. So like, every physician is probably overworked and burn out to a certain extent, but somebody with ADHD, a physician with ADHD, that’s going to be amplified. It’s going to be under a microscope. It’s going to be magnified to a much greater degree, yeah,
Kerry 23:02
and I do think, like for me now, when I’m sort of transitioning with a lot of stuff and doing coaching and really being wanting to sort of connect more in terms of like, potentially, like advocacy, or greater understanding of the problem physicians, because, again, there’s varying degrees of problem. Physicians, where, again, if you’re having issues with substance abuse, or if you’re having, you know, again, just inappropriate, unprofessionalism stuff. But like, I just think more education around for physicians with ADHD, like, the support is needed is different, yeah. Like, I think, like, physicians with ADHD, I mean, are amazing. And I think that we, like, bring a really different perspective, and I think that we add tremendous value. And, like, some things are harder, and so like, again, I think everyone needs support. But again, for a physician, like, if we’re getting in trouble or if there’s a problem, then again, same thing in school, yes, taking a step back and looking at like, what does this person need? As opposed to like, Hey, this is a deficiency. Like, yeah, what support do people need? Instead of like, you just need to step up.
Kristen Carder 24:13
Oh, that hurt me when you said that. Like, I felt the pain of that. Is that something that’s been said to you? Oh, yeah, you just need to step up. And then your body reacts How
Kerry 24:29
so, I mean, it’s just in constant fight or flight it has been. And
one of the things that I you know, I know that I’ve shared with you in the past is I’m actually currently out on medical leave because of a chronic pain condition that I mask. I feel I mask that exponentially better than I do my ADHD, like my ADHD, I just sort of show up as myself when I’m with patients and I’m doing this. Things because, like, I don’t know, I don’t know I like, I like it, and I like to be, you know,
Kristen Carder 25:05
fun and quirky. That’s how I experience you like, fun, quirky, smart, those are the three ways that
Kerry 25:10
I just want people, right? And, like, really, really focusing on, like, people being seen and heard and feeling validated, all those things, obviously, not all the time, but like, when I’m in my role, like, that’s what I’m that’s what I’m doing. And I
had, it’s not directly related
to ADHD, but it is related, I think, to the really self harsh criticism and what other people think. But I had brain surgery 12 years ago for a neurologic condition called trigeminal neuralgia, which is just constant excruciating pain. My gosh, I had a very traumatic experience with the workplace that I was at when that happened, I was told I dealt with the pain for a year, just chronic, excruciating pain prior to surgery. Prior to surgery, I told my partners, I’m having thoughts of hurting myself. I can’t do this anymore. I need to have the surgery. And I was told I needed to wait until after spring break, because they all had plans. Oh, girl, nobody talked about my mood, nobody talked about anything.
Kristen Carder 26:20
And yeah, so did you? Did you wait? Yeah,
tell me why. Tell me why you waited. So they said, No, you have to wait because we have plans, and your body
did what? Like, died a little,
yeah. Like, I’m gonna stuff this down, and I need to please the people around me and like, I can’t let myself be really taken care of.
Kerry 26:48
I think it was I put off having the surgery for so long because I was really scared. And then I reached my breaking point of, like, I actually can’t do this anymore. And then I think I just did the put my head down, and I was like, okay, we can just do it. We can push through it. You’ve been pushing through this long, and we can just do it. Wow. Okay. And then what happened? And then I was told we do not have more than 50 employees, so we don’t have FMLA, so we need you to come back four weeks after your surgery, after brain surgery, after brain surgery. So otherwise, because we can’t guarantee you’ll have a job after that, if not.
Okay, hey, yeah, so I did,
Kristen Carder 27:32
oh my gosh, okay, okay, okay.
Kerry 27:36
And then that was in 2012 and then since then I have had about every year or so I will have a pretty incapacitating couple months of flares, yeah, and then I go to the doctor, I do the things, I do, all of the body work, all of the stuff, everything I can think of, and then it kind of eases off. And then I’ve not been pain free since before I was diagnosed with trigeminal neuralgia, like I’ve had pain. How long ago was that? So that was 2011
so I’ve always had feels like there’s an ice pick my skull.
And so I do it, and then again, the last two years, it’s been getting increasingly frequent and intense.
Kristen Carder 28:25
Wait. Can I just ask? Are you still at that toxic workplace? No, I am not. Okay. Cheers to that. Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time and you wake up early, make a list, cross the things off the list in order manage your time. Well, yeah, we know what to do, but ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That’s why ADHD is so frustrating. We’re smart and we want to succeed, but we can’t get ourselves to do the things that we know we should do in order to make improvements. That’s why I created focused I’m a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019 I’ve spent 1000s of hours coaching adults with ADHD time for me to focus on you. Hello. Welcome to your coaching call. I am going to be coaching you today on relationships. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from Hot Mess express to grounded and thriving. Focused is my monthly coaching membership where we go deep and we get to the root cause of what holds us back with ADHD, I’ll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and accept yourself, flaws and all with this foundation, we build the skills to improve life with ADHD. And not only do you get skills and tools in focus, but your. Surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr Ned Hallowell says healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. As a matter of fact, listen to what actual focus members have to say about being in this program.
Speaker 1 30:19
What can I say about focused, full community of people who have issues similar to you and judge you, focus. Just really supported me with my difficulties and asking for help. I’ve been encouraged and cheered on by the community. I really like that you can do as much core as little as you want. It’s it’s not just about the volume of the content. It’s about the quality. Focus has helped me understand ADHD better. I would recommend this to anyone. I would thoroughly recommend focused. I can confidently say that this is one of the best decisions that I have made for myself.
Kristen Carder 30:48
So if you’re an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused click the link in the episode description to check it out so you transitioned out of there to somewhere else. Well, it’s so
Kerry 31:08
funny, though I did. I did get out of the toxic workplace. I did start doing my I got my first coaching certification to learn how to coach myself. Love but again, used a little bit of coaching against myself to support myself to see myself to stay in that toxic work environment. Oh, man. But then also, again, there’s a series of situations that happened in terms of like tail coverage and having to pay money to quit your job because malpractice stuff and, yeah, so some stuff. And so left that job then at a like, an exponentially better job now, but still, pain keeps playing and being, you know, up all night in the operating room and doing the things and also, sort of would just push through. And then, you know, last month I had a couple or last year, I had a couple or last year, I had a couple months where I just was in excruciating pain all the time. Then it finally got better, and then starting of this year,
was in
severe, severe pain most of the time. But there wasn’t a you can call out, because taking one day off of work isn’t gonna right fix it right, and I was doing every single thing that I could to get out of pain, and then was so
worried about, but what
if people won’t believe me, and what if they just think that I’m faking this? Or what if they just, what if I get in trouble, and sort of my pain, it was really, I mean, I had, I couldn’t get out of bed, so I had to send my son to my parents house in California to, you know, watch him, and I would, I couldn’t get out of bed, except for to go to work.
Kristen Carder 32:54
Okay, so talk to me for a minute about being in excruciating pain and yet so scared that people won’t believe you like. Let’s just dive into that for a second. Where do you think, if you don’t mind, where do you think that like originated like? At what point in your life did you start believing people aren’t gonna believe me. And I don’t mean that’s your fault. I mean, like, at what point in your life was that message given to you?
Kerry 33:31
Honestly the first grade teacher?
Kristen Carder 33:34
Dang,
Kerry 33:37
yeah, in my mind, they’re connected somehow.
Of I was six, and I knew that I was doing it right, but there was nothing on her part to acknowledge. Yeah, oh my gosh, I see you, and I see what happened. Yeah,
Kristen Carder 33:59
so you got in trouble. There’s always consequences, even if shame, being shamed is the quote, unquote only consequence, that’s still a significant consequence, especially for someone who’s that little
Yeah. And so then we start
having this belief of like, I’m not gonna be believed. I’m not. People don’t really understand me. People don’t really see me. People don’t really trust me. When I say, this is what’s happening for me,
yeah, yeah. Plus
Kerry 34:29
a culture of medicine, of people putting IVs in themselves to walk around and do rounds, or people doing, I mean, like there’s just medicine is just there’s this is sort of a deeply ingrained like culture of we just push through, which is not healthy or functional. And also what happened with my last work situation, yes, they knew my pain and that when that was happening, I think they actually really truly. I knew that I was in pain, because generally the default is, some people get hysterical when they are in pain, and my default is to stop talking. Okay? And so I would be talking, and then I would have a it just feels like a searing nerve, like burning sensation in your face. And so I’d start talking, and then, like, usually just a single chair, what tear would like roll down my cheek. And so I think they were like, We know that something’s gone. And so I think for me, a lot of the stuff that I’ve struggled with in the years since is that the pain is different, and so it’s not it doesn’t happen. And so, like, it’s not as obvious. Then also, I just learned to mask it. Because I think what happened with that other job was that you just, you say things like, I’m having thoughts of hurting myself, and they’re like, well, we need a vacation. Yeah,
Kristen Carder 35:51
sorry, we got vacations planned. Yeah. Dang. Okay, so how did you I know that you did actually follow the steps to, like, go on medical leave. And so I’m curious, where did you find that bravery, and what was the process for you to help yourself get to the point where you could just, like, take action for yourself?
Kerry 36:15
I mean, I think it actually I was doing a breath work session. Where about my pain? And I got to the point where I just was like, I ended up thanking my pain for getting so bad, like, getting so bad that I couldn’t ignore it anymore. Wow. And I also sort of because I couldn’t get out of bed, and because I was like, this has to happen. And I think also just through therapy and through coaching, sort of, and just looking at like, this is actually
just, it’s not
safe for like, nothing would ever happen. Partially, yay, because of ADHD that I can like, I can focus through it, hyper focus. I can hope, hyper focus and get the test done. And so I don’t think there was ever, there was never any safety thing. But it was just like, this is actually not sustainable. I was spending three to $500 a week to try to do stuff to get out of pain so I could go to work, wow. And so I sort of it just, we were trying to do modifications, and then just sort of reached the point of like, this is actually just, I do need to, yeah, I just need to stop Yeah. And so in doing that, I mean, again, I still have pain all the time now, but from a nervous system perspective, and all the healing that I’ve done, like I’m just feeling, I’m much more regulated. I still have the pain, but I am also I’ve been sort of learning a lot more about things like neuroplasticity, association with chronic pain. Oh, my goodness,
Kristen Carder 37:53
yes. Have you read William Dodge’s books, especially the second one? Oh, I’m so sorry. My brain is not remembering the book, the brain that changes itself, and then the second one, the brain that heals itself, is about, okay, exactly what you’re saying. I recently, I haven’t read that one. Norman Doidge. Norman, so sorry. Norman Doidge, the brain that heals itself.
Kerry 38:17
No, I did. There was a conference in Boulder that I got an email about neuroplastic pain. And so I actually cool. I was like, okay, so this is sort of stupid. This is a sign, like, I need to go to denying it. And it was good, because it really just talked about the constant state of the sympathetic nervous system, chronic fight or flight sensation. And I think the biggest thing for me was that, like them saying that the pain is really real. And so granted that there are some structural things that are happening in muscle spasms and things like that that are happening in my neck and from scar tissue from the surgery and all of those things the brain essentially has, like, rewired itself to. And so that’s the thing that I’m really working on now. Is like saying, Okay, what serves me? Because I love medicine, I love my job, and for me right now, like I can’t that’s it’s not I can’t go back, because it like, at least in the immediate future, because I’m still in pain. And there is the thing of, I will just get back in the cycle of self abandonment. Of,
Kristen Carder 39:24
can you say more about self abandonment? Because that that made me feel a big feeling. Yeah, the self abandonment is the perfect way to describe it. What was that for you?
Kerry 39:40
Just got emotional. I couldn’t get out of bed, yeah, but I didn’t want to let people down,
so I went to work, and I didn’t want people to think that I was being. I’m dramatic or faking it, and it doesn’t look like I’m in pain. And so being
so worried about what other people are gonna think or believe about me just became all I could focus on. Wow. And so I have a lot of sadness about the fact that I just
put that over. Hey, I can’t get out of bed.
Yeah, hey, I’m super distracted by the knife, like the ice pick sensation in my head and so and it was like, Well, you’ve pushed through, and you can just keep pushing through, and you can just do it, and it’s fine, because, like, these people have had surgeries booked and whatever. And I’m like, it’s just, yeah, it just, I’m really proud of myself.
It was funny. I had a
I think one of the things I was coaching and focused, and I had a client was talking about something about she was really worried that someone was gonna think something of her. And I said, but is it true? And she’s like, No. And I was like, this, somehow there was a connection too. And I was like, I am so worried that they were gonna think that I’m not really in that much pain. And I was like, If only it was that easy to just be like, Oh my You don’t think I’m in pain. Oh, my God, my pain is gone. Yes. Oh my god, that’s so amazing. Thank you for doubting me. Yes. Like, I think there was just so much gaslighting of like they’re gonna think it’s not real, and then I start doubting, like, Are you being dramatic? Are you so again, it is just the medicine culture thing, it’s a trauma reaction thing, it’s a shame thing, it’s a all of the things. So
Kristen Carder 41:58
take me to the to the point where you made the phone call or you wrote the email or whatever it was, because I remember, I believe, you were in coach, training with me, when you were realizing that you just could not
keep going. And
I remember you being coached on all of that, and I know that you know you were seeing a therapist and other modalities as well, but what did you have to do internally to like, actually take the step of I will not abandon myself anymore,
Kerry 42:41
after calling HR and sobbing hysterically, okay, yeah,
I think something happened. Something clicked. Also when,
because the pain was making me so exhausted that I was having a harder time with, like, responding to some of the emails and again, no safety issues, just like admin stuff, acutely aware of how defensive I am where I’m like,
Kristen Carder 43:11
no safety promise everything is safe, but I know that’s valid, because you wouldn’t ever want anyone to think otherwise. But every ADHD or knows that you’re going to be good at the stuff that you care about, yeah, and then let the other stuff slide. So everyone knows it’s just the emails, it’s just the phone, it’s just the chart, whatever it is, right? It’s like, all of that admin stuff, but it’s just like, being like, but I’m
Kerry 43:33
yeah, the and so because of that, then I got another like, I had a discussion about my email stuff, which then I managed to step up discussions, and you need to step up. Which then I brought up ADHD. And then HR was like, wait, what? And so that came up. And then I started being in contact with the accommodations and leave coordinator people. And so I already started having, like, my neurologist is just amazing, and having my like, whenever I would start having self doubt about, like, is this being dramatic? And like, what if people think I’m faking it, she would just be like, this is the stupidest long game if you’re faking it. So you had surgery on your brain 12 years ago to plan for calling out of work in 12 years. Yeah, she’s so sure for her. Thank God for her. So much for her. Just in terms of just like, sort of, and also be willing to be like, when I was like, well, maybe I’m just gonna stop doing this one thing. She’s like, I think that we need to do more than just not do overnight call like, she’s just like, you can’t be in the operating room for eight hours at a time, doing like, all of those things. And so she said, I think if we start too small, we’re going to slowly back away from stuff. And so through a bunch of kind of frustrating, sort of dynamic and lack of communication and whatever, I. Um, I we started with the, or like, the takeaway surgery, takeaway call, and then I just wasn’t getting bad enough better, because I could not get out of the loop of, um, but people are gonna other people are gonna have to do more work. Other people are gonna be
Kristen Carder 45:17
mad at me, still feeling responsible, still feeling like it’s everybody else that I need to worry about. Yeah,
Kerry 45:23
and I did. And at the end, when it was like, I think you need to, i Something just clicked where I was just like, because they started talking about, like, it’s not appropriate for you to spend all of your time and money on your time off, to be able to go to work somebody in the HR, coordinator, person leave a coordinator did that, and that sort of shifted, sort of a light went off. And then I just, I reached my point where I was like, I know that I can’t do this anymore. And then there, and then they asked, and then there was, like, a desperate play, at least, of because I was like, Well, I really just want to cover the next, like, Fourth of July, because, like, I’m supposed to work that holiday. So, like, if I know that there’s an end point I can put can push through it. And they were like, you know, that’s not how this works. Like, once you reach the point when you’re saying you’re done, I mean, again, from them, from like, a legal perspective, it makes sense for them to say, like, if you were saying you are needing a break, like it has to start now. Good. So I think that, no, it was good. And then I took a beautiful boundary that gave you freedom. It gave me the opportunity to completely freak out about everyone being pissed off at me. Okay, cool, cool. And then tremendous relief, yes, yeah. So I think it just Yeah. It was the yeah reaching the breaking point. And then now, as I said, like doing being away from, it gives me space. Whenever I interact with there’s still those thoughts of, I’m really good friends with a couple of my partners, and like, I just, I’m so protective of them, and I’m like, I’m so sorry that there’s extra work, and I’m so sorry. And they’re just, I mean, amazing. And they’re just like, yeah, we’ve, I mean, it happened, like we all have had stuff, yeah,
Kristen Carder 47:04
so good, I feel like, and we talk about this, sometimes in focus, like we don’t allow ourselves just to be human. And sometimes humans are not well, and other humans have to pick up the slack. And that happens to every human. But for those of us with ADHD and trauma, we think that, like, it’s just me and I’m such a big problem and everybody’s gonna be angry and like, I shouldn’t ever have to get sick or obligate other people to, like, cover me. Yeah, like, when I’m sick and Greg is taking care of me. And I’m like, I’m so sorry. And he’s like, Why are you apologizing to me? Like, this does not make sense. Like this is what we do, right? You get sick and I take care of you. And I’m like, Oh yeah, that’s right, forget. I forgot. And I love taking care of people, other people, yeah, when he’s sick, I’m like, let me help, right? What can I do? Right? So true, but when it’s me, there’s the vulnerability and the feeling like I shouldn’t be the one to put someone else out. Yeah,
Kerry 48:13
and related in all of the things, also the extra degree of difficulty of I’m a single mom, yes. And so this is my income, and this is my livelihood, and then having to get really clear of like,
but I’m not okay. Like, I’m not
okay. I’m not I’m not okay when I’m doing it there, and I will be okay because there’s other things that I can do that don’t have,
like, constantly being like, Oh, I hope people don’t die. Like,
Kristen Carder 48:47
that’s a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. That’s a lot of pressure, yeah.
Kerry 48:51
So just, you know, again, that added, add a degree of, like, wanting. But again, it has been so healing the last couple months, just to be like, Oh my God, what do I want to do? Hmm,
Kristen Carder 49:06
listening to yourself for the first time, oh my god, yeah, what’s that transition been like? Well, it’s funny because
Kerry 49:11
I really do think that I have a really solid intuition, and I really have, like, trusted a lot of things. Of like, little things are hard, and I will overthink things, but like, in terms of, like, some, like, some stuff, of like, I’m gonna do medicine, or walking in and being like, Oh, this is the house I’m gonna buy. Or people, like, real big decisions on, like, where I went to college, where I went to medical school, just just having a true internal knowing about stuff.
I’ve
always had a really good sense of that, and I feel really solid about it, but like, I have been within medicine, it has just been a lot of like, okay, so what we’re doing is like, again, you go to medical school, you go to residency, and then you get a job, and then you’re like, and. In my current situation now, they’re like, tell us what vacation requests you want in six months. And you’re like, I don’t know what I’m doing
Kristen Carder 50:06
tomorrow, tomorrow or, like, in five minutes,
Kerry 50:10
I booked my flight out here, like, I booked that flight out, and then, like, a couple weeks later, I was like, Okay, now when I booked a return, and then I did, I was like, we just do. I don’t know there’s so much in the air. We were just like, I’m just gonna do the thing. And so now where I’m like, Oh my God. Like, what do I want to do? And doing, I mean, again, like, if things work out, and recovery continues going better, and then I can work how I was working before, then maybe that’s a thing, but like doing other things that are sort of just like feeling my soul and feeling really good, and actually taking a second and being like, Oh my God, this feels good, yeah. And I want to do this, and I love this because, yeah, ADHD and physician within a big system, like, it’s really great because stuff’s taken care of, but also Vacation Requests six months in advance, and doing things in this way, and just like
Kristen Carder 51:08
operating within a gigantic system, yeah is
Kerry 51:11
just Yeah, it’s
it’s great in a lot of ways, yeah. And the security of it and the safety of it is good. But also just Yeah, so now I’m just, like, as part of healing and recovery, like, again, learning more about ADHD and how it shows up. And then kind of really, like, even if I go back, if and when I go back, like, how do I want to do things so good differently? And like, my side business and coaching, and then just really playing with, like, advocacy for physicians with ADHD or coaching just in general,
like, yeah, that, yeah, is that?
Kristen Carder 51:55
Are you specifically coaching physicians with ADHD, or is it open to anyone? Like, who do you love to coach?
Kerry 52:03
I love coaching.
I love ADHD in general. Again, the focus, there were so many barriers to me actually, because I was certified. Focus was my fourth certification, and I would so good freak out anytime the idea of actually getting a client would happen, and my nervous system would just be like, Oh my God, you’re gonna die. And so like, within focus, actually starting coaching, and I was like, Oh no, this is amazing, and I love it.
Kristen Carder 52:26
So let’s explain to people, because I don’t think they know, or not everybody knows. So when you certify through me, you have the opportunity to coach focused members. So if you want to, at first, it’s part of your training, but then you graduate from your training and then post your training. Wow, that was awkward. But whatever post training you have the opportunity to coach members, like clients within focus, you can just open up your calendar and coach people in focus, and it sounds like for you that was a beautiful stepping stone, because you didn’t have to do the marketing. You didn’t have to do, you know, the the selling, but you just like, would get clients on your schedule and coach, yeah,
Kerry 53:12
so great. And it was like, the barrier of like, just, just the obstacle of like, okay, I’m not gonna die, and nobody’s gonna waste their money. And it’s just like,
Kristen Carder 53:22
Oh, it’s so good. Like, I am good at this. I can help people,
Kerry 53:26
yeah, and I was originally gonna focus on physicians, but like, for me, and then I backed it to, like, I love all things ADHD. And then also, I’ve backed it up further to
people I enjoy talking to, yeah, who are willing to look at their stuff. Love,
Kristen Carder 53:44
yeah. And what’s so cool about that is, you’re just open to coach anyone. Yeah, you can help anybody. And I think eventually, like, you’re going to attract the clients that you are just like, oh, yeah, these are my people. Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. Do you find that you have, like, a special intuition with people who are self abandoning
Yes, you want to say more about that.
Kerry 54:11
I think, for me, what? And one of the things that I actually learned from you is because I’ve done other programs and sort of looking at the steer maps, really focusing on the unintentional model and the reality of what’s coming up. Yes, because, again, we so, like, in some other programs, you so quickly use it to, like, why would you choose to think that? Yeah? Or also like, Well, I would like to feel this, and I’m like, I just really honoring like, what is really coming up, and why are we doing what we’re doing? Yes, what’s actually happening, what’s actually happening, and then stopping. And instead of, like, beating yourself up about, like, Why the hell do I keep doing this? Why can’t I stop just being like, Oh, this, so this is what’s going on. Because I think that that’s the the key to agreed, starting with the. The truth and being honest with ourselves. Oh, it’s too hard, I know. And so for me, like, I think I’m really good at, like, Yay for ADHD, yeah. Like, I follow the dots. I notice, like, connect the dots, patterns, the patterns. And also, just like, with absolute loving kindness, like I am so much empathy, direct, yeah. And I want people to just, I mean, again, feel seen, heard and validated, yeah? And also just be like, and also, whenever I coach, there’s sort of just a mindfulness of, like, what is our role in this situation?
And, hey,
this seems really toxic, yeah. So the person that you’re in a relationship with that you’re doing these things like, what can we like? I used coaching before to stay in a seven year very abusive, emotionally abusive relationship. Just
Kristen Carder 55:52
pause there for a second, because I don’t know if people really understand what it means to use coaching to stay in toxicity, and I’ve done the same thing. So what it means is you learn these tools that say, Hey, you can modify what you’re thinking. You can get better results. You can change how you’re feeling. And that’s wonderful, yeah. But then people like you and me, what we do is we say, Great, I’m going to change me, and I’m going to use these tools basically against myself to stay in relationships or jobs or whatever that are hella toxic. Yeah, so I’m going to use these tools against myself so that I can feel better about staying in toxicity? Yes, absolutely, yes. So what you are really helping your clients with is, how about we not? Yeah, we not do that.
Kerry 56:52
And also, if you are having the exact same situation every single place you go, maybe there’s some yeah, there’s a pattern. Maybe there’s a pattern there. Maybe there’s some of it with you. But again, this is not, let’s change our mindset and then stay in a toxic situation. Yeah, and sometimes we just need to be told, like, this isn’t again, you need to be told, and then also you need to be in a place to hear it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, details. But like of so what is happening here is not okay, because people just so desperately, I think, in this situation again, sometimes you’re defensive, sometimes you want, don’t want to hear it, but like, just somebody else saying, like, so what’s happening
Kristen Carder 57:32
is not okay,
yeah, objectively not okay, yeah, it’s good as we wrap up what I would love if you are game, if you’re down for it. Do you have any encouraging words for ADHD ers who are experiencing burnout, chronic pain, self abandonment? Can you just give a little like pep talk, encouragement, just from your experience? Like, if somebody’s listening and they’re so resonating with your story, and they’re like, I want what she has like, I want to be able to do what it takes to like, leave my workplace or to take care of myself. I want to stop self abandoning. What do you have to say to listeners who are just like desperate to hear some encouragement about that.
Kerry 58:26
I mean, I think a lot of it really just starts with, I mean, again, if you again, if you’re doing it on your own, versus, I mean, again, ideally finding somebody who just really is like a cheerleader and an advocate for you, yeah, in terms of, like, helping you see the things and talking it out. But I think just basing things on
reality, of like, what is really happening, yeah, in this situation, and I think
that’s sort of the thing of like, Hey, I’m really hurt. And then we so quickly jump to this thought of, like, oh, I shouldn’t be hurt, or it’s no that big bag that it’s not that big of a deal. So you’re gaslighting yourself, validating yourself. And so, like, there’s a real big difference between like, sort of just like, constantly whining, and this is terrible, and then also just being in a situation where you’re like, I think just sort of also really tapping into, like, what is your body saying? Yeah, and telling you, and so if you’re, like, constantly in fight or flight, or like, needing to, sort of all the ways that we try to control situations to be better, just,
I think
we get so scared of okay, but if I leave, then I’m never going to find anything else, and if I’m going to do whatever, but if like the number one, like again, I’m not going to find a job, I’m not going to find a healthy relationship, I’m not going to have something else. I’m not going to be able to support my family. Like that sort of muddies the water, yeah. And so while sort of. Teasing out, like, your steps and having strategy can be helpful for, like, some of the stuff I’m doing now about like, Okay, what else can I do if just going back to medicine in the way that I was doing it before doesn’t end up being possible? I think it’s just really starting with, like, I am not okay with this, and how this is
powerful, and just being
really honest, Yeah, about that, and it’s really scary sometimes. But just like trusting your body and just being like, I’m not, this isn’t okay, yep, and then stopping, because our brain wants to go to the excuse making
Kristen Carder 1:00:38
and all of the gaslighting, you’re fine, yeah, don’t be dramatic, right?
Kerry 1:00:41
And just, and you can’t just stop forever, because our brains go on and trauma and all the things like that. But just being like, starting with like,
this isn’t okay.
Kristen Carder 1:00:50
Good. So good, yeah. Dr. Kerry, yeah. Thank you so much for being here. This was such a treat. I really appreciate it.
Kerry 1:01:00
No, Thank you so much. This was really, it’s really, really appreciative for how you’ve in addition to just coaching, like the nuances of like, trauma informed stuff, and then just really approaching things with kindness and just really validating sort of people’s experience, I just think is just shifted so much for me in my life, and so I will be forever grateful you.
